Is the honeymoon over?

[The Sweeney]

So, from the second half of CR, what exactly wasn't accurate to the book?

The ending.

A more cinematic way of her committing suicide, but the principle remains the same.

Anything else majorly different, other than the villains background is no longer KGB/SMERSH?

[James]

Anything else majorly different, other than the villains background is no longer KGB/SMERSH?

Yes, in the book James Bond is tall and handsome.

[stockslivevan]

Anything else majorly different, other than the villains background is no longer KGB/SMERSH?

Yes, in the book James Bond is tall and handsome.

Looks like Craig fits the bill there.

[Eye Of The Tiger]

I found the torture scene to be a disgusting and repulsive scene that just amplified what horrible decisions EON had made with the franchise. The torture scene did not recall past Bond films, it recalls sick and twisted films like the "Saw" franchise where the whole premise of the film is built around brutality and evil.

You obviously haven't read the 1952 novel in which the film was based then.....

I own the novel. I have read the first chapter two different times, but both times I got so bored with it that I never got around to the second chapter.

I do intend sometime, maybe even soon, to read the whole book.

Even though I have never read the part of the book with the torture scene I was already aware of it being in the book.

[The Sweeney]

I found the torture scene to be a disgusting and repulsive scene that just amplified what horrible decisions EON had made with the franchise. The torture scene did not recall past Bond films, it recalls sick and twisted films like the "Saw" franchise where the whole premise of the film is built around brutality and evil.

You obviously haven't read the 1952 novel in which the film was based then.....

I own the novel. I have read the first chapter two different times, but both times I got so bored with it that I never got around to the second chapter.

I do intend sometime, maybe even soon, to read the whole book.

Even though I have never read the part of the book with the torture scene I was already aware of it being in the book.

The torture scene in the novel is far more horrific than in the film. Fleming was a bit of a sadist on the quiet.

[carl stromberg]

Fleming was a bit of a sadist on the quiet.

I think he may have been a nutter.

[James]

Anything else majorly different, other than the villains background is no longer KGB/SMERSH?

Yes, in the book James Bond is tall and handsome.

Looks like Craig fits the bill there.

You must give me the name of your oculist.

[Commander 0077]

Both the novels and the film Bonds didn't take their snobbery seriously.

I didn't think Craig was taking snobbery seriously in CR either. This is one of the points criticizing Craig's performance. That he isn't posh and suave enough, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

My point is that whether 'serious' or not, Craig was not 'posh or suave' in the least, but just an everyday fellow.

Take a look at the book Goldfinger where Bond is treated to a lavish dinner. Afterwards, he's ashamed of himself. The 'high life' is really not for him. He mocks himself in the later books as just being a peasant, and plans to 'retire to a chicken farm.' Not exactly the comments of someone who takes himself too seriously, nor the 'gentleman' standard as something to aspire too 'seriously.'

Another thing with Craig is that he's just too serious in the role.

Bond was very serious through the entire novels. The comments you made above hardly reflect the more serious tone in the novels. Bond rarely cracks a smile in the books, never mind a one-liner quip. Usually, the most Bond ever does in the way of smiling, is smiling at some women he is about to try and pull, or smiling grimly to himslef at some sadistic thought.

[

quote]
I think it may come down to the possibility that we are reading two different sets of books Bond in the books (to me) has a very well developed sense of irony and humor. Eg, quips : OHMSS, as he's walking behind Irma Bunt, he speaks to himself : "Hm. Irma not so la douce!" If that isn't a Bondian quip, I shall eat the monkey's hat.
YOLT : Kissy presents him with 'pillow book' of sex positions. Bond says, "We'll start on page one." (or something like that). Both Tiger and Bond banter throughout the book, and towards the end, Tiger has a real affection for Bondo san. Even TMWTGG, written when Fleming was at a physical low, Bond says to Goodnight, when she inquires what type of dress he would prefer she wear : "Something tight and not too many buttons." Some misc. lines from the books "They'll split their sides at headquarters over that one" (OHMSS, i think).... "Four bezants, four balls, Mr Bond! Isn't that exciting?" Bond dryly says, "I'll shall certainly keep that in mind." (the entire Griffon Or episode is campy).


[/quote]

[The Sweeney]

Both the novels and the film Bonds didn't take their snobbery seriously.

I didn't think Craig was taking snobbery seriously in CR either. This is one of the points criticizing Craig's performance. That he isn't posh and suave enough, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

My point is that whether 'serious' or not, Craig was not 'posh or suave' in the least, but just an everyday fellow.

Take a look at the book Goldfinger where Bond is treated to a lavish dinner. Afterwards, he's ashamed of himself. The 'high life' is really not for him. He mocks himself in the later books as just being a peasant, and plans to 'retire to a chicken farm.' Not exactly the comments of someone who takes himself too seriously, nor the 'gentleman' standard as something to aspire too 'seriously.'

Another thing with Craig is that he's just too serious in the role.

Bond was very serious through the entire novels. The comments you made above hardly reflect the more serious tone in the novels. Bond rarely cracks a smile in the books, never mind a one-liner quip. Usually, the most Bond ever does in the way of smiling, is smiling at some women he is about to try and pull, or smiling grimly to himslef at some sadistic thought.

[

quote]
I think it may come down to the possibility that we are reading two different sets of books Bond in the books (to me) has a very well developed sense of irony and humor. Eg, quips : OHMSS, as he's walking behind Irma Bunt, he speaks to himself : "Hm. Irma not so la douce!" If that isn't a Bondian quip, I shall eat the monkey's hat.
YOLT : Kissy presents him with 'pillow book' of sex positions. Bond says, "We'll start on page one." (or something like that). Both Tiger and Bond banter throughout the book, and towards the end, Tiger has a real affection for Bondo san. Even TMWTGG, written when Fleming was at a physical low, Bond says to Goodnight, when she inquires what type of dress he would prefer she wear : "Something tight and not too many buttons." Some misc. lines from the books "They'll split their sides at headquarters over that one" (OHMSS, i think).... "Four bezants, four balls, Mr Bond! Isn't that exciting?" Bond dryly says, "I'll shall certainly keep that in mind." (the entire Griffon Or episode is campy).

I've just been reading a book on Fleming, and it claims towards the end of his life, when he was writing his final few novels he became slowly influenced by the films, and started to add more gadgets and slightly more sardonic humour. Interestingly, the ones you quoted are in fact these novels, the novels written when the films were released.

But if you read the entire set, the humour in the novels are very much few and far between. For most part, the novels are deadly serious, violent, extremely sadistic, dark, sometimes gloomy even. Even with your examples there, you've struggled to find more than flimsy attempts at humour, and very ocassional ones at that. It was more low-key, sarcastic humour at best - and something which is still also evident in CR.

[Commander 0077]

Well, Live and Let Die was, what, the second or third book. Bond flies into New York and meets with Felix Leiter. They have a pretty humorous time. In fact, one of the chapter titles is "No Sensahuma" ... Felix takes Bond into Harlem, where Bond sweats during a strip teaser's act. That may be supposed to be dead serious, but it comes across (to me, anyway) as funny. I don't see much bleakness in this novel. When the two buds are in Florida, the warehouseman shoots a seagull for no reason, and Bond is not impressed "Hey what did you do that for?" which shows that he's a nice guy.

When Fleming was writing the scene where Bond and Solitaire are being tied up naked, (I've told this story before, but ....) and she says "I didn't want it to be like this." Noel Coward read the draft, and he laffed, "You're not going to keep this in?" And Fleming, quote, 'with tears in his eyes' said "Yes!" From his bios, Fleming thought the books were just a lark, he wrote tongue-in-cheek for much of the time.

As for the later books having even more humor, well, that's a good thing. The later books were some of the best of the series. Again, to the chaper with Griffin Or / OHMSS ... that's an extended scene. It's not just a flash.

Another of the early ones : Moonraker. "Dinner At Blades" shows Bond having some fun at M's expense. And then he meets Hugo Drax, a guy clearly over the top in appearance and manner.

The books remind me of Sherlock Holmes. There, too, the author presents a central character who is supposedly doing serious things, but he does it entertainingly. Holmes hears someone outside the door, and he says to Watson, "This is a woman of medium height and fair complexion, with a mole on her left ankle. Her father is a fussilier, and has worked in Bosmania coal fields. Her breakfast this morning was two cucumber sandwiches with a spoon of mayonaise from Bouloln." When they were being written, a lot of people took them seriously, and that Holmes was in fact a real person. But Conan Doyle, I think, was just entertaining himself by creating a strange but luvable hero (which can apply to Bond of the books, too).

I find it very funny when Bond orders a huge meal, quaffing several bottles of Tattinger, then six shots of a 'good stiff drink' and then he's ready to do battle at the casino (again, OHMSS). I may be imagining it, but LALD probably has Bond and Felix drinking their way thru New York. Or : "His eggs were only brown eggs from his favourite chicken coop, number 6. They were pre-heated to 10 degrees above room temperature, and then May rolled them in Savon butter." In Fleming bios, he wrote these long-winded descriptions of everyday things to amuse himself.

[The Sweeney]

Well, Live and Let Die was, what, the second or third book. Bond flies into New York and meets with Felix Leiter. They have a pretty humorous time. In fact, one of the chapter titles is "No Sensahuma" ... Felix takes Bond into Harlem, where Bond sweats during a strip teaser's act. That may be supposed to be dead serious, but it comes across (to me, anyway) as funny. I don't see much bleakness in this novel. When the two buds are in Florida, the warehouseman shoots a seagull for no reason, and Bond is not impressed "Hey what did you do that for?" which shows that he's a nice guy.

When Fleming was writing the scene where Bond and Solitaire are being tied up naked, (I've told this story before, but ....) and she says "I didn't want it to be like this." Noel Coward read the draft, and he laffed, "You're not going to keep this in?" And Fleming, quote, 'with tears in his eyes' said "Yes!" From his bios, Fleming thought the books were just a lark, he wrote tongue-in-cheek for much of the time.

As for the later books having even more humor, well, that's a good thing. The later books were some of the best of the series. Again, to the chaper with Griffin Or / OHMSS ... that's an extended scene. It's not just a flash.

Another of the early ones : Moonraker. "Dinner At Blades" shows Bond having some fun at M's expense. And then he meets Hugo Drax, a guy clearly over the top in appearance and manner.

The books remind me of Sherlock Holmes. There, too, the author presents a central character who is supposedly doing serious things, but he does it entertainingly. Holmes hears someone outside the door, and he says to Watson, "This is a woman of medium height and fair complexion, with a mole on her left ankle. Her father is a fussilier, and has worked in Bosmania coal fields. Her breakfast this morning was two cucumber sandwiches with a spoon of mayonaise from Bouloln." When they were being written, a lot of people took them seriously, and that Holmes was in fact a real person. But Conan Doyle, I think, was just entertaining himself by creating a strange but luvable hero (which can apply to Bond of the books, too).

I find it very funny when Bond orders a huge meal, quaffing several bottles of Tattinger, then six shots of a 'good stiff drink' and then he's ready to do battle at the casino (again, OHMSS). I may be imagining it, but LALD probably has Bond and Felix drinking their way thru New York. Or : "His eggs were only brown eggs from his favourite chicken coop, number 6. They were pre-heated to 10 degrees above room temperature, and then May rolled them in Savon butter." In Fleming bios, he wrote these long-winded descriptions of everyday things to amuse himself.

I guess that's the beauty of novel interpretations. To me, they are very dark, serious, introverted, violent, ocassionaly depressing, ocassionally uplifting, but with very ocassional grim humour, as opposed to gag-a-minute comedy fest.

But to you, they are light-hearted and funny. I have to say, this is the first time I've known someone who thinks this. Most (if not all) reviews I've read on the Bond novels say there is hardly any humour in them at all.

I guess you (to quote Monty Python) Always Look on the Bright Side of Life....whistle, whistle....

[Gary Seven]

Fleming wrote dark thrillers where the protagonist is trapped in a dark world which he would like to escape from. They are escapist, because Fleming found those elements easy to write. But Fleming also throws in lots of dark elements because he wants to be a serious writer.

But they are, to me as a modern reader, fantastic, escapist thrillers with nihilistic moments but not totally depressing - a bit like Phil Marlowe. There are humourous bits and outlandish characters, but Bond does not do the typical Connery/Brosnan etc quips that are suited to the cinema.

CR had stupid quips as well. I remember Craig saying something about Swiss chocolate....

[Kristatos]

Anything else majorly different, other than the villains background is no longer KGB/SMERSH?

The shower scene? From an interview with Paul Haggis:

"When he sees a woman who has just witnessed something horrific and she's sitting in the shower, he just doesn't go in and [have sex with] her like the old Bond would've done," Haggis laughed. "He sits there with her, and she says, 'I can't get the blood out from under my fingernails!' and so he helps her get the blood out. That's my Bond, a different Bond, who's much more like [my usual] guys, these heroes. Yes, it's escapism and it's fun. But I try to ground him in realism."

Emphasis mine. Haggis clearly sees himself as reinventing Bond in his own (or at least his own characters') image, rather than staying true to Fleming's Bond.

[The Sweeney]

Anything else majorly different, other than the villains background is no longer KGB/SMERSH?

The shower scene? From an interview with Paul Haggis:

"When he sees a woman who has just witnessed something horrific and she's sitting in the shower, he just doesn't go in and [have sex with] her like the old Bond would've done," Haggis laughed. "He sits there with her, and she says, 'I can't get the blood out from under my fingernails!' and so he helps her get the blood out. That's my Bond, a different Bond, who's much more like [my usual] guys, these heroes. Yes, it's escapism and it's fun. But I try to ground him in realism."

Emphasis mine. Haggis clearly sees himself as reinventing Bond in his own (or at least his own characters') image, rather than staying true to Fleming's Bond.

It sounds to me as though the Bond he is changing is the OTT Moore/Brozza cinematic version - not the Fleming version. The literary version wouldn't go and have sex with a distressed female either.

[Kristatos]

It sounds to me as though the Bond he is changing is the OTT Moore/Brozza cinematic version - not the Fleming version. The literary version wouldn't go and have sex with a distressed female either.

But I doubt he'd comfort her either. I don't have the book of Casino Royale in front of me, so I can't give you the exact wording, but I remember a quote near the beginning about Bond not really liking women much but considering them useful for "recreational purposes". Fleming's Bond was not the emotionally literate metrosexual man (when he's not acting like a thug) that Haggis and Craig created.

[The Sweeney]

It sounds to me as though the Bond he is changing is the OTT Moore/Brozza cinematic version - not the Fleming version. The literary version wouldn't go and have sex with a distressed female either.

But I doubt he'd comfort her either. I don't have the book of Casino Royale in front of me, so I can't give you the exact wording, but I remember a quote near the beginning about Bond not really liking women much but considering them useful for "recreational purposes". Fleming's Bond was not the emotionally literate metrosexual man (when he's not acting like a thug) that Haggis and Craig created.

Fleming often contradicted his character. Bond tried to remain cold and detached from women, but often never succeeded. It's one of the reasons he fell for women like Tracey, and Vivian from TSWLM (`a bird with one wing down', Fleming described them as).

[Commander 0077]

Yes.
At the end of Moonraker (book) Bond is planning to go off with Gala Brand; from his reaction it's obvious that he has a heart. He sits in a cafe and Gala comes in, she points to a man standing outside the window. She tells Bond she's going to marry that man. Bond then pulls himself together, telling himself to live up to the role of the cold secret agent, 'the man who is only a silhouette.'

On looking at the bright side of things I suppose that does have a lot to do with it, that I see Bond both intentionally funny (planned by Fleming) and also a little bit of unintentional humor. Eg, he wakes up, does '20 press ups' and is exhausted, staggering into the shower. It's those 60 Moreland Specials a day! that reminds me, OHMSS has a superabundance of exclamation points --- I suppose to convey Bond's arch point of view. "Hells bells!" "God, that had been close!" "A typical SPECTRE death!"

And don't forget the chapter titles, "He disagreed with something that ate him." (again, sointoinly very Conneryesque).

But no, I don't find the books depressing at all, they're just escapist fun. May, his Scottish housekeeper, who 'tut tuts' Bond's way of life, and he takes it all in good fun. He smiles to himself when May comes as close as she ever will to calling someone 'sir' by saying, "ss" ...

And Bond's interplay with the 'girls at the office' -- Miss Moneypenny, Mary Goodnight -- ' "Goodnight, goodnight," Bond said. She giggled.' What we see on the screen was already in the novels. Flirt flirt with Moneypenny, Loela Poisonby -- 'The double-Os all had a standing bet who would be the first to bed her. Bond had a slight edge over 005, the ex. Royal Marine.' ( think there were only three 00s, so it was a small pool).