US Election 2008

[Dr. No]

if you get your news from the daily show you might believe that, no major poll has a majority of americans wanting this bill. We want reform not a shotgun wedding of bad ideas and payoffs. The dems will lose partly because of their base will be apathetic but the deciding factor will be because of their loyalty to the party and not the people they represent.

The tea part isn't a redneck jamboree and isn't RNC tool. There are a lot of people angry about the out of control spending and this bill specifically. Strange why outlandish liberal groups start protesting it is refreshing but not when the shoes is on the other foot.

If you do not think a lot of americans are angry over this bill you have know idea what is going on. The White House talking point are BS, parts of the bill are popular but on the whole it is a poison bill that members of congress know voting for will get them defeated next election.

[Kristatos]

if you get your news from the daily show you might believe that, no major poll has a majority of americans wanting this bill. We want reform not a shotgun wedding of bad ideas and payoffs. The dems will lose partly because of their base will be apathetic but the deciding factor will be because of their loyalty to the party and not the people they represent.

They don't have any loyalty to their party, at least not to their party rank and file. Their loyalty is to the insurance industry lobbyists who pay their "campaign contributions", aka legalised bribes. No, no poll shows Americans wanting a universal mandate, but there are plenty of polls showing a majority in favour of a public option or single payer.

Here's one (note question 7d on page 6).
Here's another (see page 4).
Here's a summary of several polls.

[Dr. No]

over 50% of the people oppose this bill, more in local areas.
We want and need reform this bill makes a lot of our problems worse.

In general the idea of public option works in specifics it isn't so simple. We just don't have good leaders to try to reform the system, the ones who get the power sell out as soon as they get there.

[Kristatos]

We just don't have good leaders to try to reform the system, the ones who get the power sell out as soon as they get there.

tru dat. The speed at which Obama turned from inspirational agent of change to Bush's third term makes me wonder if Bill Hicks' routine about every new President being taken to a back room by some secret service guys straight after his inauguration and shown unedited footage of JFK's assassination, just to keep him in line, wasn't closer to the truth than he knew.

Anyway, the bill has now passed, and it's the worst of both worlds - a universal mandate and no public option, exactly what Obama opposed when he was running against Hillary in the primaries.

[bjmdds]

He adopted Hillary's talking points....he mainted Bush's status quo with the military....he is a fake fraud. If you do not think Massachusetts voting in a Republican in Kennedy's seat is PROOF beyond the shadow of a doubt of the fall demise of the Democratic majority, you are out of touch living in the UK. People are FED UP with out of control spending. Period. Read this pork bill. 2400 pages of pork for minorities that pay no taxes yet will get a free ride of goodies galore is what this bill truly is. Oh-bama has 3 talking points that most agree on for health care. That could have been done in 1 page. Pork to the poor is what this bill is in 90% of it.

[Kristatos]

Pork to the poor is what this bill is in 90% of it.

No, more like a giveaway to the insurance industry. I think you can sleep easy knowing that your nightmare scenario of poor people being helped probably won't come to pass. It'll be the predator class that ends up benefitting, just the way you like it.

[Kristatos]

If you do not think Massachusetts voting in a Republican in Kennedy's seat is PROOF beyond the shadow of a doubt of the fall demise of the Democratic majority, you are out of touch living in the UK.

Republican columnist David Frum doesn't seem so optimistic.

[Kristatos]

No, more like a giveaway to the insurance industry.

Physicians for a National Healthcare Program, which lobbies for single-payer, agrees with me in their latest press release

As much as we would like to join the celebration of the House's passage of the health bill last night, in good conscience we cannot. We take no comfort in seeing aspirin dispensed for the treatment of cancer.

Instead of eliminating the root of the problem - the profit-driven, private health insurance industry - this costly new legislation will enrich and further entrench these firms. The bill would require millions of Americans to buy private insurers' defective products, and turn over to them vast amounts of public money.

[bjmdds]

Pork to the poor is what this bill is in 90% of it.

No, more like a giveaway to the insurance industry. I think you can sleep easy knowing that your nightmare scenario of poor people being helped probably won't come to pass. It'll be the predator class that ends up benefitting, just the way you like it.

Poor people are not helped in the USA? People come here and get Medicaid and foodstamps and now cell phones and soon to be high speed internet access. Don't give me that nonsense Kris. Poor teenagers have babies, no fathers to raise their kids, and they receive non-stop aid here. How many other countries do this? This country gives BILLIONS each year to other countries in free aid. Does the UK or France or China or Germany or Spain or any other country on this planet do that? How much does your UK give to other countries? There is NO money left to expand that here. Don't you get that? Insurance companies need to be monitored. I agree with that 10000%;however, laws should be passed to allow them to reduce their premiums, not expand another government bloated bureaucracy whereby fraud runs amuck and higher taxes are collected to put more people on the payrolls. The days of free money are done.

[Kristatos]

This country gives BILLIONS each year to other countries in free aid. Does the UK or France or China or Germany or Spain or any other country on this planet do that? How much does your UK give to other countries?

According to Wikipedia, the US is the largest donor of overseas aid in real terms, and the UK the second largest, but the UK gives a larger percentage of its GNP, so it depends what method of calculation you want to use. The figures are:

US - $22.74 billion (0.17% of GNP)
UK - $12.61 billion (0.89% of GNP)

But do you think that official government aid (as opposed to charitable donations) is given out of largesse? There are always strings attached, usually in the form of kickbacks to the donor country's corporations.

There is NO money left to expand that here.

Au contraire, there's plenty of money, but it's all going to insurance companies to pay the people who find novel excuses for denying your claim. The US spends far more on healthcare than countries which have universal healthcare, whilst receiving none of the benefits.

Insurance companies need to be monitored.

No, they need to be taken out of the equation altogether (though I don't have a problem with companies selling supplementary insurance, like they do here, for people who want the bells and whistles).

The days of free money are done.

Unless you're a Wall Street banker of course.

[bjmdds]

Plenty of wall streeters are working at Home Depot now. You do not want any private health insurance, do you? Medicaire here denies PLENTY of claims for seniors. You think expanding this via increasing taxes will work?

[carl stromberg]

This country gives BILLIONS each year to other countries in free aid. Does the UK or France or China or Germany or Spain or any other country on this planet do that? How much does your UK give to other countries?

According to Wikipedia, the US is the largest donor of overseas aid in real terms, and the UK the second largest, but the UK gives a larger percentage of its GNP, so it depends what method of calculation you want to use. The figures are:

US - $22.74 billion (0.17% of GNP)
UK - $12.61 billion (0.89% of GNP)

But do you think that official government aid (as opposed to charitable donations) is given out of largesse? There are always strings attached, usually in the form of kickbacks to the donor country's corporations.

Britain has to give a large proportion of it's aid budget (a half?) to the EU to spend, and the EU is responsible for a big part of the world's aid. The EU does follow the Chinese model of using aid to further its trade and political interests. Lots of people, such as former UK Development minister Claire Short, have moaned about this.

[Kristatos]

You do not want any private health insurance, do you?

Like I said, I'm not opposed to supplementary insurance. Britain has companies like BUPA that sell services for people who are willing to pay extra for things that the NHS does not provide, such as private rooms and shorter wait times. These are much cheaper than American health insurance, because you have to be competitive if you want to persuade people to pay for something they can get (in a more basic form) for free. It's kind of like upgrading to first class. If Republican healthcare policies were applied to airline travel, economy class would be abolished, and only "the right sort of people" would be allowed to fly.

[bjmdds]

But all cannot fly for free or the airlines would go broke and close up shop.

[Kristatos]

But all cannot fly for free or the airlines would go broke and close up shop.

Well, OK. Perhaps the analogy falls down on closer analysis. Flying isn't a basic need like healthcare, and if it was funded through general taxation (not really "free", just free at the point of delivery), people would be jetting off to Barbados whenever they wanted, whereas nobody goes to hospital if they can avoid it.

[Powder Puff]

if you get your news from the daily show you might believe that, no major poll has a majority of americans wanting this bill. We want reform not a shotgun wedding of bad ideas and payoffs. The dems will lose partly because of their base will be apathetic but the deciding factor will be because of their loyalty to the party and not the people they represent.

The tea part isn't a redneck jamboree and isn't RNC tool. There are a lot of people angry about the out of control spending and this bill specifically. Strange why outlandish liberal groups start protesting it is refreshing but not when the shoes is on the other foot.

If you do not think a lot of americans are angry over this bill you have know idea what is going on. The White House talking point are BS, parts of the bill are popular but on the whole it is a poison bill that members of congress know voting for will get them defeated next election.

I'm surprised that something managed to get passed - it was a window of opportunity and Obama managed to get something through.

[Dr. No]

I'm surprised that something managed to get passed - it was a window of opportunity and Obama managed to get something through.

It is amazing they forced the bloated piece garbage through. It also is the end of the Democratic Party. They sold us out. Then bent to the will of what the crooked party heads in Washington told them to do and they all went along with the corruption. The reason for representative republic is to represent the people at home and on farms and not pass bloated pork filled bills like this. I am angry as hell about this and so is just about everyone I know. The dems will pay a heavy price for many many years. Obaba has thrown away any chance at reelection. What the hell happened to the good principled democrats we used to have? every damned one in Washington now took a payoff.

[Kristatos]

I'm surprised that something managed to get passed - it was a window of opportunity and Obama managed to get something through.

Only after gutting it until everything that people thought they were voting for when they elected Obama got taken out.

[Kristatos]

It also is the end of the Democratic Party. They sold us out.

Yes, but the official narrative in the corporate media is that this giveaway to the insurance companies represents "universal healthcare" and Obama succeeding where JFK failed yadda yadda yadda. If enough people believe this Big Lie, Obama's approval ratings might actually go up as a result, especially if he starts bringing home troops from Iraq (even if it is just to deploy them in AfPak). Obama was primarily elected for two things, universal healthcare and ending the war. It matters less whether he achieves them than whether he can convince Mr. and Mrs. Joe Q. Public in Buttfuck, Idaho that he's achieved them (cynical, moi?)

[bjmdds]

You should reprimand yourself for using a curse word Kris. This health care bill will be only one reason to vote ALL of these bums out. The second reason will be upcoming:amnesty for 15,000 illegal Mexicans to enlarge the Democratic voting block. I want too see Oh-bama's face the day after the November political massacre coming.