The BJMDDS General Discussion Thread......

[Kristatos]

Or the flip side of that is that they do respond to the silly rumours of the day and look like James Gunn, denying reports, arguing with fans, being snide and combative, and he looks like he's not in control.

I don't agree with this. Not only is Gunn admirably civil, even to obvious trolls, the fact that he takes the time to debunk fake news makes it much easier to tell what's real and what isn't. Obviously he's not an unbiased source, but if he makes a casting announcement or whatever, you can be confident that it's genuine. As a result, he is as much in control of the narrative as it's possible to be in our post-truth era,

[Pluto007]

Actually he's known to be quite combative in exchanges (even by his own admission; and when he does this, it makes him look like he's lost control).

You may like that approach, but others have told him to tame his impulse to jump down peoples throats.

But saying that, the following is from James Gunn and his lesson here could also be applied to impatient Bond fans:


James Gunn

I’m getting barraged with bulls**t DC rumors this morning. I’ll just reiterate the general rule not to believe anything unless it comes from me or Peter. But, unless it’s especially egregious, I’m going to slow down on calling s**t out. (Sorry, I know, it’s one of my favorite traditions). There are three reasons for this: 1) Some people are making up lies to get attention from me or to get clicks & I don’t want to encourage that. 2) I’ve read a hundred rumors this morning. ONE of them is half-true. So I don’t want to be used as a way for people to throw nonsense at the wall until something sticks. 3) I’m storyboarding Superman Legacy and don’t have time! Have a great day!


Re: Bond: as Gunn says:Don't believe anything until it's from the source.

There's nothing to any rumours re: Bond. Not ATJ, not seeking musical talent, nothing.

The media, plants in the film industry who want to bolster their projects, and fan-fic is all that's circulated about Bond thus far.

And why'd so many here hate EoN? And especially Broccoli? She, and EoN, are tremendously respected in the industry, and I can understand and empathise not liking the Craig Era (I couldn't stand the Brosnan films, or him, in the role; I wanted more Dalton. But, the marketplace called for someone else, and I accepted that).

But hating the producers of a property one supposedly loves, makes little sense to me.

The Craig Era is over, a new actor will soon be announced. Tens of millions around the world will love the choice, but a group will also despise it.

It's a business made for millions of people to enjoy, not for a handful of die-hard Bond fans.

It's rather confusing...

[Kristatos]

I just get frustrated with Broccoli and the now semi-retired MGW sometimes. EON have always been a bit seat-ot-their-pants, but the current regime often comes across as nepo babies who have inherited a valuable IP and succeeded more through luck than skill. At the moment, nobody there seems to have the faintest idea what to do next. Apologists for the Broccowilsons like to claim that Barbara Broccoli is some kind of tactical supergenius playing a game of 11-dimensional chess, but this is not borne out by the diminishing box office returns from the last couple of films, nor the apparent lack of any plan for the future.

[Pluto007]

I just don’t know why fans expect updates?

It seems entitled, no? I mean, we’re not investors in these films (although some are highly invested).

And being in the business myself, I can assure you: EON, or anyone working in this sphere, aren’t staying there because of luck. They just aren’t. I mean, hate the films all you want, but pretenders, and those that lack talent (whether writing, directing, producing), quickly find themselves making z-films (hello, Josh Trank).

So once again, I can empathize with disliking an era, but when you look at the success, the market loved these films.

Bond never imagined a billion dollars in box office, so after SKYFALL made this, there of course was a natural dip, but $881 million for SPECTRE?? A highly flawed film?? In the industry— that was a huge success.

And the release of NTTD in October ‘21, while COVID was still decimating the film industry, and they still pulled in $775 million was seen as a hit for this genre and for its demographics (a comparable would be the latest Guy Ritchie efforts or the Mission Impossible films— Bond still is King)

I’m not trying to be contrarian. And like I said, I can empathize with disliking an era (I walked out of every Brosnan film feeling a little miserable; but it was what the market was calling for and these were also wildly successful), but these guys aren’t where they are (and that’s including their competitors ), because of luck.

In fact, and please hold any hate (not you in particular Kristatos, just others who may impulsively hate what I’m saying and am about to say): people in the industry think Broccoli and company are savvy producers.

Hate the films. Hate the market. But, especially in the genre, and after sixty plus years, no spy, no spy-thriller, can consistently beat Bond.

And while Bond thrives, how many series have you seen tumble and fall into oblivion in the last few years (Star War is in big trouble, MCU is a mess, DC is getting another reboot, Indy Jones(and with those types of creators!), flopped and is now dead, Lethal Weapon, dead, Die Hard, dead, Fast and Furious, limping to its last installment to then die, XxX, dead….). How many action series are still around from 1962?? One. James Bond. If these nepotism-babies had no talent, Bond would have died back in the Brosnan era.

A new actor will come, and like I said, most will eventually give him the thumbs up, but others will despise the choice. But no film has ever pleased everyone all of the time. Butts will get hurt in the future. But EoN knows how to stay in the game, and not only bring in healthy box office, but reign over all the others in its genre.

[Pluto007]

I just don’t know why fans expect updates?

It seems entitled, no? I mean, we’re not investors in these films (although some are highly invested).

And being in the business myself, I can assure you: EON, or anyone working in this sphere, aren’t staying there because of luck. They just aren’t. I mean, hate the films all you want, but pretenders, and those that lack talent (whether writing, directing, producing), quickly find themselves making z-films (hello, Josh Trank).

So once again, I can empathize with disliking an era, but when you look at the success, the market loved these films.

Bond never imagined a billion dollars in box office, so after SKYFALL made this, there of course was a natural dip, but $881 million for SPECTRE?? A highly flawed film?? In the industry— that was a huge success.

And the release of NTTD in October ‘21, while COVID was still decimating the film industry, and they still pulled in $775 million was seen as a hit for this genre and for its demographics (a comparable would be the latest Guy Ritchie efforts or the Mission Impossible films— Bond still is King)

I’m not trying to be contrarian. And like I said, I can empathize with disliking an era (I walked out of every Brosnan film feeling a little miserable; but it was what the market was calling for and these were also wildly successful), but these guys aren’t where they are (and that’s including their competitors ), because of luck.

In fact, and please hold any hate (not you in particular Kristatos, just others who may impulsively hate what I’m saying and am about to say): people in the industry think Broccoli and company are savvy producers.

Hate the films. Hate the market. But, especially in the genre, and after sixty plus years, no spy, no spy-thriller, can consistently beat Bond.

And while Bond thrives, how many series have you seen tumble and fall into oblivion in the last few years (Star War is in big trouble, MCU is a mess, DC is getting another reboot, Indy Jones(and with those types of creators!), flopped and is now dead, Lethal Weapon, dead, Die Hard, dead, Fast and Furious, limping to its last installment to then die, XxX, dead….). How many action series are still around from 1962?? One. James Bond. If these nepotism-babies had no talent, Bond would have died back in the Brosnan era.

A new actor will come, and like I said, most will eventually give him the thumbs up, but others will despise the choice. But no film has ever pleased everyone all of the time. Butts will get hurt in the future. But EoN knows how to stay in the game, and not only bring in healthy box office, but reign over all the others in its genre.

[Kristatos]

Oh good, another "know your place, peasants" Broccoli toady.

[Pluto007]

Oh, I didn’t realize I was a toady.

I am in film. And I really love talking about the business.

And instead of attacking my arguments you make an ad hominem which I don’t think I deserved.

If you read what I said, I was talking about EON and their competing producers. It’s not luck that ALL of these guys are long-term producers (once again, not just talking about Bond producers. It takes talent.

But, that was disappointing. I thought we could have a discussion about the business. But instead I’m accused of being a toady (I’m actually not sure of the definition, but it doesn’t sound flattering).

[Pluto007]

Oh, I didn’t realize I was a toady.

I am in film. And I really love talking about the business.

And instead of attacking my arguments you make an ad hominem which I don’t think I deserved.

If you read what I said, I was talking about EON and their competing producers. It’s not luck that ALL of these guys are long-term producers (once again, not just talking about Bond producers. It takes talent.

But, that was disappointing. I thought we could have a discussion about the business. But instead I’m accused of being a toady (I’m actually not sure of the definition, but it doesn’t sound flattering).

[Pluto007]

And I apologize for the double posts— not sure why it keeps repeating on me (still navigating this site).

[Kristatos]

And I apologize for the double posts— not sure why it keeps repeating on me (still navigating this site).

Are you posting using Tapatalk? That sometimes results in double posts, due to a glitch in the app,

And you're right, I shouldn't bite the noob. You are not the first person to suggest that wanting news about something you're a fan of is somehow "entitled", and that we should all just be content with whatever crumbs fall from EON's table. But surely fan/audience engagement is a key part of building a brand, and EON seem a bit stuck in the past in that regard, as though the whole social media revolution never happened, and the occasional leak to a newspaper is enough.

[dirtybenny]

Hello Pluto and welcome to the forum.

You state you are "in the industry," would you care to elaborate? I understand you may not want to give too much away, but could you tell us, do you work for a studio or are you an independent contractor? Are you on the creative, technical or business side of the industry? If "things don't work that way," could you please enlighten us as to how they do work?

I'm also curious as to why a savvy "insider" such as yourself has decided to join such an admittedly small and niche forum such as ours?

[bjmdds]

Bezos has been silent on the future of the franchise he now owns. Why is he allowing this to continue at a snail's pace is the question unless Broccoli is taking him for a ride with no interest in the next film.

[Kristatos]

Bezos has been silent on the future of the franchise he now owns.

Once again, Bezos doesn't own the franchise, he's executive chairman of the parent company of the distributor of the franchise.



Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

[Pluto007]

Thank you Kristatos -- I must've been using Tapatalk.

Hi Benny.

I never called myself savvy.
I am not here to be contrarian.
I am a creative and business in the independent side of the film industry.
I am here because I'm a massive Bond fan, and I thought I could lend a different perspective, that maybe the market dictates a studio's position, and the creatives work within those constraints.

Once again, I'm not here to be a contrarian, or to stir the pot, or to change anyone's mind on anything. But I know I can give a perspective from someone who works in the industry.

That's all.

If anyone is interested in chatting about all things Bond and the film industry in general, I'd be happy to participate. I'm not interested in name-calling or belittling.

[kater23]

Even with everything that’s happened in the past,I’m willing to listen to what Pluto has to say.

[Pluto007]

Hi Kater! Thanks and I’d love to chat with you too!

I’m not sure what’s happened in the past, and I’m not all too interested in scrapping with strangers. We all obviously have a love of the James Bond character, and that’s my common thread with you all.

Personal tastes are personal tastes and I won’t begrudge anyone’s opinion, or demean or belittle. That’s not why I come to fan boards.

[dirtybenny]

Thank you Kristatos -- I must've been using Tapatalk.

Hi Benny.

I never called myself savvy.
I am not here to be contrarian.
I am a creative and business in the independent side of the film industry.
I am here because I'm a massive Bond fan, and I thought I could lend a different perspective, that maybe the market dictates a studio's position, and the creatives work within those constraints.

Once again, I'm not here to be a contrarian, or to stir the pot, or to change anyone's mind on anything. But I know I can give a perspective from someone who works in the industry.

That's all.

If anyone is interested in chatting about all things Bond and the film industry in general, I'd be happy to participate. I'm not interested in name-calling or belittling.

Easy friend, I called you savvy because you say you're in the business, which would make you by default savvier than the rest of us. You'll also have to forgive our cautious approach to new folk who come out of the woodwork and instantly take a "contrarian" perspective, intentional or not, you must admit one could easily interpret your statements as such, especially without establishing yourself here first. We are constantly bombarded with strange individuals who can't handle the fact we dislike the direction this series has taken over the past two decades. If you truly want to engage in good natured, civil conversation then you are more than welcome here.

[Pluto007]

Not a problem, as far as I'm concerned. But I have to reinforce I'm not savvy and I don't consider myself savvy, although I now understand why you used that term to describe me. I am just a guy working for his livelihood in a very interesting, and at times, insane business where egos run amok, too much money is being blown (the Russo's latest is reportedly costing $320 million, and that's before P & A), and sometimes the major studios are tone deaf. The industry is all over the map after three years of COVID and then back to back strikes. There's a real state of insanity at the moment.

As far as Bond, I do admire that this is a series that, by all intents and purposes, especially in today's market, should not still be in existence.

It should have died out in and around its second decade (when you take a look at most series, they last a decade, maybe two, before they start flaming out and people lose interest).

So why the hell is this one still hanging around when all the knock offs from the 60s are dead and gone, Rocky is no longer Rocky, Rambo died on a porch (but was already on life support by its previous film), Lethal Weapon (no matter what Gibson says about no. 5), is dead; Die Hard gasped to its fifth, but was as good as done after three, and as I said yesterday: DC is getting another reboot, MCU is a hot mess, Star Wars is desperately throwing anything and everything at us.

So forgetting about about tastes, or the direction you think EON is going in, my big question is why? Why is Bond still standing? Why hasn't Bond slipped into b-movie or z-movie status (like, say the Death Wish films)? They say Bond skews older, but why is it taking in between $775 million to 1.1 billion in its last era (that's not a few million people seeing these films one time; when you get into these astronomical box office figures, it means millions are seeing these pictures several times over).

I have my own issues with some of the directions, but, that's not at all interesting when isolating the question of why is a "creaky, old, white man's fantasy, based off of books written in the 50s and early 60s" still the king of his genre?

I find James Bond's survival, decade after decade, to be a fascinating discussion.

So saying all of the above, I'm not here to attack anyone's personal tastes. And if collectively everyone on this site feels the same about everything, I'd be shocked, but whatever, I'll still be respectful. I'm looking forward to reading different perspectives whether I agree or disagree. And to me, the value is experiencing different points of view, and whether I agree or disagree is a moot point, and not what I'm here for.

Anyways, thanks for reading, and I look forward to fruitful chats to come.

[Kristatos]

Yes, reading the behind the scenes story of Goldeneye, I was shocked to discover how close it came to not being greenlit. Even back then, market research showed younger viewers thinking of Bond films as something their dads watched (this was before the Nintendo game brought in a whole new generation of fans).

So, in spite of my harsh words about EON, I do have some sympathy for their plight. They were pretty savvy in recognising the vibe shift caused by The Bourne Identity and adjusting Casino Royale accordingly (though I don't believe a full reboot was necessary - Purvis and Wade have said that their first draft of the script was written under the assumption that it would be Pierce's fifth film, though it was always meant to be more down to earth after the excesses of DAD).

That was 20 years ago, and there doesn't seem to be any similar touchstone for the current zeitgeist, so no wonder they're flailing a bit. I just don't buy the argument that Barbara Broccoli is some kind of tactical genius who has a brilliant plan to retool the franchise for the modern era. I think she's as clueless as the rest of us.

Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk

[kater23]

Hi Kater! Thanks and I’d love to chat with you too!

I’m not sure what’s happened in the past, and I’m not all too interested in scrapping with strangers. We all obviously have a love of the James Bond character, and that’s my common thread with you all.

Personal tastes are personal tastes and I won’t begrudge anyone’s opinion, or demean or belittle. That’s not why I come to fan boards.

So,I’ve been in a lot of fandom(Hannibal(movie and TV series)and James Bond among them) with multiple actors playing the role,and also based on books and fans can feel a certain sort of way about plot lines and elements that are(or aren’t) used. Have an unpopular opinion and that makes you an outsider. I’ve learned to temper(heh)my feelings quite a bit!