Which is best: TND or TWINE

General Bond discussion from Sean Connery to Pierce Brosnan

Which is best: TND or TWINE

TND
10
48%
TWINE
11
52%
 
Total votes: 21

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ml94
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by ml94 »

Barry Niven wrote:Neither. I find them both terrible. TND's only advantages were the Dr. Kaufman scene (how freakin' COOL was that to actually see Vincent Schiavelli of all people as a Bond Villain, and have it work?) and its comparatively simple-to-follow plot, which was only an accident based on the behind-the-scenes turmoil that "simplified" it. But TWINE may actually be worse as it's only sympathy vote for Desmond Llewelyn's farewell scene as the Definitive-Q is quickly tossed into the compost heap with the jarring shift onto Bond watching Elektra's video recounting her "escape" from her captors, with that HORRIBLE moment of Bond "emphatically" touching the video screen as the playback shows her pouring her crocodile tears for all the World to witness her overwrought emotional trauma. Jesus f**king Christ that sucked.

Despite the repeated insistence that removing Denise Richards alone would've salvaged the film, I just don't agree at all. Between Michael Apted's indifferent handling of the action sequences and his apparent enabling of Sophie Marceau's flouncy Drama-Queen antics ("It is MAH oyull! MAHn!! The OYYulll flows threw MAH VaynZZ, thickurr than bludd!"), that puts him on my $#!+ list of Modern One-Shot Directors who contributed to the current movies' heavy-handed melodrama. Richards' just makes an easy scapegoat since she's 1) NOT attractive, 2) CAN'T act, and 3) has NO class and a serious attitude problem. How else to explain how she grates the very first second she butchers a simple line like "I'm going to get some air" and comes off as a total B!+CH?

Basically, TWINE was just another example of their "one-step forward, two-steps back, and one in another dimension" policy that mangled everything up in the long run. With Brosnan's apparent demand that they hire a REAL director after not getting along with Roger Spottiswoode on TND, they partially placated him with Apted based on the man's "drama" credentials. And to atone for the Terri Hatcher blunder (who Brosnan didn't like either), they aimed to fill the supporting cast with REAL actors like Marceau and Robert Carlyle. And then they promptly blew it with the hiring of fanboy kiss-ass hacks Purvis & Wade to pen the script (with only a token nod to Bruce Feirstein to "polish" their dominant work as his "Final Bow"), no-class Denise Richards, and the most boring excuse for a climax on a submarine after only 8 seconds of a "war scene" (Zukovsky and four guys shooting at offscreen bad guys on a SMALL DOCK). What a terrible waste. Of money.
:down: :down:
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

Barry Niven wrote:Neither. I find them both terrible. TND's only advantages were the Dr. Kaufman scene (how freakin' COOL was that to actually see Vincent Schiavelli of all people as a Bond Villain, and have it work?) and its comparatively simple-to-follow plot, which was only an accident based on the behind-the-scenes turmoil that "simplified" it. But TWINE may actually be worse as it's only sympathy vote for Desmond Llewelyn's farewell scene as the Definitive-Q is quickly tossed into the compost heap with the jarring shift onto Bond watching Elektra's video recounting her "escape" from her captors, with that HORRIBLE moment of Bond "emphatically" touching the video screen as the playback shows her pouring her crocodile tears for all the World to witness her overwrought emotional trauma. Jesus f**king Christ that sucked.

Despite the repeated insistence that removing Denise Richards alone would've salvaged the film, I just don't agree at all. Between Michael Apted's indifferent handling of the action sequences and his apparent enabling of Sophie Marceau's flouncy Drama-Queen antics ("It is MAH oyull! MAHn!! The OYYulll flows threw MAH VaynZZ, thickurr than bludd!"), that puts him on my $#!+ list of Modern One-Shot Directors who contributed to the current movies' heavy-handed melodrama. Richards' just makes an easy scapegoat since she's 1) NOT attractive, 2) CAN'T act, and 3) has NO class and a serious attitude problem. How else to explain how she grates the very first second she butchers a simple line like "I'm going to get some air" and comes off as a total B!+CH?

Basically, TWINE was just another example of their "one-step forward, two-steps back, and one in another dimension" policy that mangled everything up in the long run. With Brosnan's apparent demand that they hire a REAL director after not getting along with Roger Spottiswoode on TND, they partially placated him with Apted based on the man's "drama" credentials. And to atone for the Terri Hatcher blunder (who Brosnan didn't like either), they aimed to fill the supporting cast with REAL actors like Marceau and Robert Carlyle. And then they promptly blew it with the hiring of fanboy kiss-ass hacks Purvis & Wade to pen the script (with only a token nod to Bruce Feirstein to "polish" their dominant work as his "Final Bow"), no-class Denise Richards, and the most boring excuse for a climax on a submarine after only 8 seconds of a "war scene" (Zukovsky and four guys shooting at offscreen bad guys on a SMALL DOCK). What a terrible waste. Of money.


Disagree completely.Both of these movies are FAR from terrible.TND is all around decent,has some brilliant scenes and good action scenes that keep your adrenaline going although the action is TOO much at the end.TWINE,on the other hand I love despite Denise Richards.This movie has all around a more complexed story,relations between characters and characters themselves.And about that scene where Bond is watching Elektra interview after she "escaped"-it wasn't too much drama and soap-operaesque and it was well done.I wonder what do you have to say about the whole" kissing hand under the water" thing in CR or infact the whole thing between Vesper and Bond.I mean that armour conversation about heart and whatnot.God,I wanted to bang my head.Also,how the hell can Bond say "If you do what I do for too long you will remain without soul.I'm taking what's left." Dude,you just got licence to kill in the beggining of the movie.I mean :!: :!: :!: :!: Bond doesn't worry about his soul for freaking sake he cares about England."For England,James." "But James,I need you." "So does England." "Oh,the things I do for England." Why the hell did the guy in CR(i REFUSE to call him Bond) became secret agent in the first place??? Lord,the whole thing in CR just couldn't have been done worse...they turned Bond into a guy says lines lik "That's because you know what I can do with my little finger." Puke. :down: James Bond does sex puns with style not in a "completely freaky and sleazy and I wanna throw up way"...Lord.

Bascally,the biggest thing is that Apted made a fatal mistake with throwing Christmas Jones in the story.He himself said how the thing between bond and Elektra is a real deal(from Bond's side).How when they are together in bed there is no light puns and usual stuff,that "it's real".Great,brilliant.I loved the scene,the chemistry between Brosnan and Marceau is great.But,good grief,why throw another girl in story then????? :!: :!: :!: :?: :?: :?: Apted,you have explaining to do.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

I think the poll results reflect rightly the situation. One half prefers TWINE due to more character driven story and the others prefer TND mostly due to Christmas Jones I guess. Although I think I read the review that said how GoldenEye was about building the Bond character in a post Cold War world and TND was the proof how Bond is still very much the thing with all the classical Bond things. I very much agree.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by ml94 »

Veronica wrote:I think the poll results reflect rightly the situation. One half prefers TWINE due to more character driven story and the others prefer TND mostly due to Christmas Jones I guess. Although I think I read the review that said how GoldenEye was about building the Bond character in a post Cold War world and TND was the proof how Bond is still very much the thing with all the classical Bond things. I very much agree.
Yeah. :cheers:
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

ml94 wrote:
Veronica wrote:I think the poll results reflect rightly the situation. One half prefers TWINE due to more character driven story and the others prefer TND mostly due to Christmas Jones I guess. Although I think I read the review that said how GoldenEye was about building the Bond character in a post Cold War world and TND was the proof how Bond is still very much the thing with all the classical Bond things. I very much agree.
Yeah. :cheers:
I mean to ask you,does TND get better with each viewing?because the last time I watched it I was somehow underwhelmed.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by ml94 »

Veronica wrote:
ml94 wrote:
Veronica wrote:I think the poll results reflect rightly the situation. One half prefers TWINE due to more character driven story and the others prefer TND mostly due to Christmas Jones I guess. Although I think I read the review that said how GoldenEye was about building the Bond character in a post Cold War world and TND was the proof how Bond is still very much the thing with all the classical Bond things. I very much agree.
Yeah. :cheers:
I mean to ask you,does TND get better with each viewing?because the last time I watched it I was somehow underwhelmed.
I think TND is solid Bond movie (not the best & not the worst)...thats it.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

ml94 wrote:
Veronica wrote:
ml94 wrote:
Veronica wrote:I think the poll results reflect rightly the situation. One half prefers TWINE due to more character driven story and the others prefer TND mostly due to Christmas Jones I guess. Although I think I read the review that said how GoldenEye was about building the Bond character in a post Cold War world and TND was the proof how Bond is still very much the thing with all the classical Bond things. I very much agree.
Yeah. :cheers:
I mean to ask you,does TND get better with each viewing?because the last time I watched it I was somehow underwhelmed.
I think TND is solid Bond movie (not the best & not the worst)...thats it.
That's true.. I seriously don't know what was wrong last time. TND was the first Bond movie I watched all the way through and before my marathon Bond if someone said a Bond movie that Danish lesson would appear in my head. I just got bored during that finale... that after it I was somehow underwhelmed. I they should've made a little more "intriguing spy game" than "action" finale.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by ml94 »

Veronica wrote:
ml94 wrote:
Veronica wrote:
ml94 wrote:
Veronica wrote:I think the poll results reflect rightly the situation. One half prefers TWINE due to more character driven story and the others prefer TND mostly due to Christmas Jones I guess. Although I think I read the review that said how GoldenEye was about building the Bond character in a post Cold War world and TND was the proof how Bond is still very much the thing with all the classical Bond things. I very much agree.
Yeah. :cheers:
I mean to ask you,does TND get better with each viewing?because the last time I watched it I was somehow underwhelmed.
I think TND is solid Bond movie (not the best & not the worst)...thats it.
That's true.. I seriously don't know what was wrong last time. TND was the first Bond movie I watched all the way through and before my marathon Bond if someone said a Bond movie that Danish lesson would appear in my head. I just got bored during that finale... that after it I was somehow underwhelmed. I they should've made a little more "intriguing spy game" than "action" finale.
Yeah, finale was "BONDISH"...not too serious. :007:
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

The ending with Wai Lin and Bond was certainly BONDISH just like every other ending of a Bond movie. I am talking about that whole thing before. They should've lower down on the action part. Explosions etc.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by ml94 »

Veronica wrote:The ending with Wai Lin and Bond was certainly BONDISH just like every other ending of a Bond movie. I am talking about that whole thing before. They should've lower down on the action part. Explosions etc.
Maybe little, but again: its a BOND movie (LOTS OF EXPLOSIONS & ACTION)...
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by The Sweeney »

ml94 wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:TND for me. I was never a big fan of TWINE.
Reason?
Because I'm not. And why don't you start posting more than just one liners, or only smileys, then maybe I'll give you a decent response...? :wink:
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by The Sweeney »

Barry Niven wrote:Neither. I find them both terrible. TND's only advantages were the Dr. Kaufman scene (how freakin' COOL was that to actually see Vincent Schiavelli of all people as a Bond Villain, and have it work?) and its comparatively simple-to-follow plot, which was only an accident based on the behind-the-scenes turmoil that "simplified" it. But TWINE may actually be worse as it's only sympathy vote for Desmond Llewelyn's farewell scene as the Definitive-Q is quickly tossed into the compost heap with the jarring shift onto Bond watching Elektra's video recounting her "escape" from her captors, with that HORRIBLE moment of Bond "emphatically" touching the video screen as the playback shows her pouring her crocodile tears for all the World to witness her overwrought emotional trauma. Jesus f**king Christ that sucked.

Despite the repeated insistence that removing Denise Richards alone would've salvaged the film, I just don't agree at all. Between Michael Apted's indifferent handling of the action sequences and his apparent enabling of Sophie Marceau's flouncy Drama-Queen antics ("It is MAH oyull! MAHn!! The OYYulll flows threw MAH VaynZZ, thickurr than bludd!"), that puts him on my $#!+ list of Modern One-Shot Directors who contributed to the current movies' heavy-handed melodrama. Richards' just makes an easy scapegoat since she's 1) NOT attractive, 2) CAN'T act, and 3) has NO class and a serious attitude problem. How else to explain how she grates the very first second she butchers a simple line like "I'm going to get some air" and comes off as a total B!+CH?

Basically, TWINE was just another example of their "one-step forward, two-steps back, and one in another dimension" policy that mangled everything up in the long run. With Brosnan's apparent demand that they hire a REAL director after not getting along with Roger Spottiswoode on TND, they partially placated him with Apted based on the man's "drama" credentials. And to atone for the Terri Hatcher blunder (who Brosnan didn't like either), they aimed to fill the supporting cast with REAL actors like Marceau and Robert Carlyle. And then they promptly blew it with the hiring of fanboy kiss-ass hacks Purvis & Wade to pen the script (with only a token nod to Bruce Feirstein to "polish" their dominant work as his "Final Bow"), no-class Denise Richards, and the most boring excuse for a climax on a submarine after only 8 seconds of a "war scene" (Zukovsky and four guys shooting at offscreen bad guys on a SMALL DOCK). What a terrible waste. Of money.
I agree with the majority of this. I'm all for bringing the drama back into Bond, but much of TWINE was borderline hammy soap opera stuff, and I too cringed when Brosnan brushed away the tear when using the touchscreen. At times it felt more like watching an episode of Dallas, rather than Fleming.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by ml94 »

The Sweeney wrote:
ml94 wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:TND for me. I was never a big fan of TWINE.
Reason?
Because I'm not. And why don't you start posting more than just one liners, or only smileys, then maybe I'll give you a decent response...? :wink:
My english is not that good, im finnish.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by The Sweeney »

ml94 wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:
ml94 wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:TND for me. I was never a big fan of TWINE.
Reason?
Because I'm not. And why don't you start posting more than just one liners, or only smileys, then maybe I'll give you a decent response...? :wink:
My english is not that good, im finnish.
Ahhh ok. Sorry.
Funny enough, I'm off on a business trip tomorrow to Helsinki..... :cheers:
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by ml94 »

The Sweeney wrote:
ml94 wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:
ml94 wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:TND for me. I was never a big fan of TWINE.
Reason?
Because I'm not. And why don't you start posting more than just one liners, or only smileys, then maybe I'll give you a decent response...? :wink:
My english is not that good, im finnish.
Ahhh ok. Sorry.
Funny enough, I'm off on a business trip tomorrow to Helsinki..... :cheers:
:up: :up:
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

Sweeney then what is your opinion on the whole thing between Vesper and Bond? I mean what's with that dialogue about heart and armour and stripping it off? And don't get me started on that kissing hand under the water thing... when he touched the screen in TWINE it wasn't too much and it actually worked. Bond finds himself responsible for her father and she was kidnapped. Also the whole thing was meant to show how Bond is affected by Elektra from the start. Of course they threw the whole thing down the toilet when they threw Christmas Jones into the story. The last moment between Bond and Elektra should have been the most important moment in this movie. The one that you will first think of when you think of this movie. Oh but no... it's like Apted was afraid we won't know if it's a Bond movie if Bond is oh god forbid alone at the end of the movie and climbs into the bed himself. The moment I can't recognize a Bond movie is if the guy doesn't care about vodka martini or looks like a street thug. That's the moment. They could have perfectly ended a movie with some other "cool" moment. That way the whole thing wouldn't be thrown down the toilet.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by The Sweeney »

Veronica wrote:Sweeney then what is your opinion on the whole thing between Vesper and Bond? I mean what's with that dialogue about heart and armour and stripping it off? And don't get me started on that kissing hand under the water thing... when he touched the screen in TWINE it wasn't too much and it actually worked. Bond finds himself responsible for her father and she was kidnapped. Also the whole thing was meant to show how Bond is affected by Elektra from the start. Of course they threw the whole thing down the toilet when they threw Christmas Jones into the story. The last moment between Bond and Elektra should have been the most important moment in this movie. The one that you will first think of when you think of this movie. Oh but no... it's like Apted was afraid we won't know if it's a Bond movie if Bond is oh god forbid alone at the end of the movie and climbs into the bed himself. The moment I can't recognize a Bond movie is if the guy doesn't care about vodka martini or looks like a street thug. That's the moment. They could have perfectly ended a movie with some other "cool" moment. That way the whole thing wouldn't be thrown down the toilet.
TWINE just didn't do it for me.
I didn't like some of the dialogue between Vesper and Bond either. Too much, IMO.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

The Sweeney wrote:
Veronica wrote:Sweeney then what is your opinion on the whole thing between Vesper and Bond? I mean what's with that dialogue about heart and armour and stripping it off? And don't get me started on that kissing hand under the water thing... when he touched the screen in TWINE it wasn't too much and it actually worked. Bond finds himself responsible for her father and she was kidnapped. Also the whole thing was meant to show how Bond is affected by Elektra from the start. Of course they threw the whole thing down the toilet when they threw Christmas Jones into the story. The last moment between Bond and Elektra should have been the most important moment in this movie. The one that you will first think of when you think of this movie. Oh but no... it's like Apted was afraid we won't know if it's a Bond movie if Bond is oh god forbid alone at the end of the movie and climbs into the bed himself. The moment I can't recognize a Bond movie is if the guy doesn't care about vodka martini or looks like a street thug. That's the moment. They could have perfectly ended a movie with some other "cool" moment. That way the whole thing wouldn't be thrown down the toilet.
TWINE just didn't do it for me.
I didn't like some of the dialogue between Vesper and Bond either. Too much, IMO.
What was with that "Even if the only thing that left of you was your little and smile..." I mean-candidation for the worst dialogue :?:
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by The Sweeney »

Veronica wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:
Veronica wrote:Sweeney then what is your opinion on the whole thing between Vesper and Bond? I mean what's with that dialogue about heart and armour and stripping it off? And don't get me started on that kissing hand under the water thing... when he touched the screen in TWINE it wasn't too much and it actually worked. Bond finds himself responsible for her father and she was kidnapped. Also the whole thing was meant to show how Bond is affected by Elektra from the start. Of course they threw the whole thing down the toilet when they threw Christmas Jones into the story. The last moment between Bond and Elektra should have been the most important moment in this movie. The one that you will first think of when you think of this movie. Oh but no... it's like Apted was afraid we won't know if it's a Bond movie if Bond is oh god forbid alone at the end of the movie and climbs into the bed himself. The moment I can't recognize a Bond movie is if the guy doesn't care about vodka martini or looks like a street thug. That's the moment. They could have perfectly ended a movie with some other "cool" moment. That way the whole thing wouldn't be thrown down the toilet.
TWINE just didn't do it for me.
I didn't like some of the dialogue between Vesper and Bond either. Too much, IMO.
What was with that "Even if the only thing that left of you was your little and smile..." I mean-candidation for the worst dialogue :?:
Yes, I hated that. However, I didn't find this kind of dialogue that different from the Brosnan era, which was also cringeworthy.
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Re: Which is best: TND or TWINE

Post by Veronica »

The Sweeney wrote:
Veronica wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:
Veronica wrote:Sweeney then what is your opinion on the whole thing between Vesper and Bond? I mean what's with that dialogue about heart and armour and stripping it off? And don't get me started on that kissing hand under the water thing... when he touched the screen in TWINE it wasn't too much and it actually worked. Bond finds himself responsible for her father and she was kidnapped. Also the whole thing was meant to show how Bond is affected by Elektra from the start. Of course they threw the whole thing down the toilet when they threw Christmas Jones into the story. The last moment between Bond and Elektra should have been the most important moment in this movie. The one that you will first think of when you think of this movie. Oh but no... it's like Apted was afraid we won't know if it's a Bond movie if Bond is oh god forbid alone at the end of the movie and climbs into the bed himself. The moment I can't recognize a Bond movie is if the guy doesn't care about vodka martini or looks like a street thug. That's the moment. They could have perfectly ended a movie with some other "cool" moment. That way the whole thing wouldn't be thrown down the toilet.
TWINE just didn't do it for me.
I didn't like some of the dialogue between Vesper and Bond either. Too much, IMO.
What was with that "Even if the only thing that left of you was your little and smile..." I mean-candidation for the worst dialogue :?:
Yes, I hated that. However, I didn't find this kind of dialogue that different from the Brosnan era, which was also cringeworthy.

The whole thing for me with Vesper and Bond was done in such a corny and cliched way that...I can't even describe it.Also with the whole Vesper cocktail.
"Because,once you taste it you don't wanna try anything else." Did Bond watch teen soap or something :?: :?:
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