Skyfall = Bond is dead

A place for discussion of all Bond 23/Skyfall related news and rumors
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by bjamesobrad »

The Sweeney wrote:
bjmdds wrote:Again Sweeney, is Cr-egg handsome or not?
Not at all, then again I didn't really imagine Fleming's Bond to be overly handsome either. Tough essence, rough looking, someone you wouldn't want to mess with, but with the same token, someone who looks cool too. To me Craig has all this in abundance. I never once really believed either Moore or Brosnan could really handle themselves in a life or death situation. I could never imagine either of them being able to handle themselves properly in a fight.

Lazenby and Connery appeared as though they were men capable of handling themselves, and Dalton put on a d**n good performance to make audiences believe he could handle himself.

But with Craig it is all natural - he really looks believable as a government spy out in the field, murdering the enemy and ruthlessly bedding women along the way. Being suave, sophisticated and GQ model handsome actually hindered Brosnan IMO from making him truly believable as a deadly killer.
lol :007: I firmly believe if each bond actor went one on one right now even with their present age I think Craig would only be able to take Moore. (I am a Moore fan).
Connery would murder Craig. same with Lazenby.
Brosnan would put a hurt on Craig no doubt about it. :cheers:
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Sweeney »

bjamesobrad wrote:
The Sweeney wrote:
bjmdds wrote:Again Sweeney, is Cr-egg handsome or not?
Not at all, then again I didn't really imagine Fleming's Bond to be overly handsome either. Tough essence, rough looking, someone you wouldn't want to mess with, but with the same token, someone who looks cool too. To me Craig has all this in abundance. I never once really believed either Moore or Brosnan could really handle themselves in a life or death situation. I could never imagine either of them being able to handle themselves properly in a fight.

Lazenby and Connery appeared as though they were men capable of handling themselves, and Dalton put on a d**n good performance to make audiences believe he could handle himself.

But with Craig it is all natural - he really looks believable as a government spy out in the field, murdering the enemy and ruthlessly bedding women along the way. Being suave, sophisticated and GQ model handsome actually hindered Brosnan IMO from making him truly believable as a deadly killer.
lol :007: I firmly believe if each bond actor went one on one right now even with their present age I think Craig would only be able to take Moore. (I am a Moore fan).
Connery would murder Craig. same with Lazenby.
Brosnan would put a hurt on Craig no doubt about it. :cheers:
Craig would probably kick ass out of all of them, because he physically trains hard in the gym each day.

Actually, it would be a pathetic bitch-slap fest, as they are all actors, and actors don't really fight. :lol:
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Sweeney »

Jim wrote: Hi again, The Sweeney - yeah, we can all see things differently at times. That's what makes for some entertaining discussion sometimes. And I can see what you're saying about the novels, in fact some of that is in some of the Bond movies, like Thunderball for example. But did Fleming's Bond in the novels mope about for months like a stroppy 13 year old in a huff? Fail to report for duty in the middle of an assignment?
Yes, in the beginning of YOLT after Tracy was killed. Bond suffers months of depression, moping around in Regents Park garden, ignoring orders from Moneypenny to return to the office, being spiteful towards M. I think this led for about 9 months in the novel.
Jim wrote: Get M killed? Allude to his homosexual encounters? Which book is all this in?
Bond makes mistakes throughout all the novels, and frequently gets people killed, including women and close friends, the ultimate being his newly-wed wife. I never thought Bond's response to the homosexual come-on was meant as anything serious. It was a rebuff to fend off the threat. But Fleming did touch upon a homosexual undertone throughout his last novel TMWTGG, and Bardem's character echos many similarities to Scaramanga from the novel.
Jim wrote: But although the books are where Bond began, let us not forget that it is the movies that have created the global legend over the last 50 years. And these have been the vehicle for a Bond of particular character. And that character is not a stroppy, selfish, self-obsessed, undisciplined, bisexual with madcap ideas that cause his superiors to be murdered.
Bond could be undisciplined and stroppy. Selfish and self-obsessed - most definitely. This is one of the main selling points of the Fleming novels, everything centres around Bond's inner thoughts, and his wierd obsessions.
Jim wrote: Yes, you might like the new character in Skyfall, but Bond would dismiss him in an instant.
The character I saw in Skyfall was Bond, nothing new there. The character I saw in many Moore and Brosnan films was Austin Powers.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Saint 007 »

All this talk about how this Bond could win in a fight against another certain Bond is ridiculous. I see these kinds of discussions on IMDb, and I can't stand it when people say that Bond has to be a stereotypical macho man in order to be believable, cool, etc. I personally thought having Bond as an average built English gentleman spy made things more interesting, especially when he was taking on villains that were bigger and stronger than him, like Oddjob or Jaws. Craig just feels so overpowered at times, that it no longer makes things exciting, and you kind of feel sorry for the bad guy he's beating up. Bond can get out of tough situations, by various combat skills, gadgets, or his own wit, and he never had to be portrayed as a muscular macho man in order to be considered believable and cool years ago.

Take a look at Super Mario, for example. At first glance he may seem quite harmless, but he can sure kick butt, and has given Bowser a hard time for several years. :wink:
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Roger Devereau »

Bond is not overly handsome? I must have been reading some different Ian Fleming novels all these years. :) Fleming's Bond was the archetypal film star handsome hero type not a literary Hugo Drax lookalike.

I imagine Bond as having a relatively normal body. In the novels he is tough and often hurts himself quite badly. He relies on his wits and training. But he is not the muscular type like Craig. Daniel Craig is a short fella who felt the need to body build for Bond. Ian Fleming's James Bond would not body build for 3 hours every day - he'd go nuts. Take Daniel's bodybuilding and match it with his stern facial expression and the myth of Daniel Craig being the toughest Bond is created.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Capt. Sir Dominic Flandry »

Here is video of Sir Roger and Craig having a fight

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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Jim »

Hi again The Sweeney,
in response to your points in your reply to me –

(1) re. the beginning of YOLT after Tracy was killed – interesting, but I suggest there are some significant differences between that and Skyfall.

Firstly, in the instance you cite from YOLT Bond was grieving the death of his wife, the love of his life; its understandable he was depressed and not in the right frame of mind for active service for some months. In Skyfall he was upset because the operation went wrong and he disagreed with M’s operational judgement call.

Secondly, correct me if I’m wrong but in YOLT novel it sounds like he was not in the middle of an assignment, whereas in Skyfall he was in the middle of a critically important assignment and he just failed to show because he was in a huff.

(2) Bond has made mistakes throughout the movies too, and has had to do what he can to correct them. That he makes mistakes is not at issue; there is another category of ‘mistake’ at issue here, and it is called ineptitude. In Skyfall, Bond’s harebrained, strategically inept plan resulted in the head of MI6 being killed.

I thought the fact he just showed up at the office afterwards to a smiling new M for business as usual was indicative of the ineptitude of Skyfall’s writers (by which I mean to refer to anyone involved in constructing its narrative, i.e. writers, director, producers etc). In reality, or indeed in a fictional story in any way grounded in a coherent narrative exposition, he would have been dismissed from the service.

Also, just a note about Tracy’s death in OHMSS, how does Bond cause her death in the book? In the film he didn’t cause her death; she was shot by a passing assassin.

(3) You say that you ‘never thought Bond's response to the homosexual come-on was meant as anything serious… It was a rebuff to fend off the threat.’ But for a number of reasons this is an odd interpretation you have suggested, and it sounds like you are straining here.

Firstly, why would he joke about having had previous homosexual encounters to fend off the threat of homosexual advances?

Secondly, why would he joke about it at all anyway?

Thirdly, you say you did not take Bond’s allusion to the possibility of previous homosexual encounters as anything serious, but the line was not delivered as a joke, it was delivered as a perfectly straightforward observation.

Further you say ‘But Fleming did touch upon a homosexual undertone throughout his last novel TMWTGG, and Bardem's character echos many similarities to Scaramanga from the novel.’

But forgive me if I am sceptical of your interpretation here; would you be so kind as to furnish any quotes from TMWTGG which indicate underlying homosexual tendencies in Bond?

And Bardem’s character is not at issue here; it is the character played by Craig we are discussing.

(4) You say ‘Bond could be undisciplined and stroppy. Selfish and self-obsessed - most definitely… This is one of the main selling points of the Fleming novels, everything centres around Bond's inner thoughts, and his wierd obsessions.’

But again this is slightly missing the point here, especially as you revert again to the books in response a point explicitly concerning the movies.

Let me remind you of my point… ‘although the books are where Bond began, let us not forget that it is the movies that have created the global legend over the last 50 years. And these have been the vehicle for a Bond of particular character. And that character is not a stroppy, selfish, self-obsessed, undisciplined, bisexual with madcap ideas that cause his superiors to be murdered.’

In the movies Bond is not stroppy, selfish and self-obsessed. I cannot debate your interpretation of Bond in the books because I have only ever read one. Nevertheless, the books may well centre around Bond's thoughts and obsessions, but that does not in itself necessarily mean Bond in the books is self-absorbed and stroppy like a huffy 13 year old, and neither, more pertinent to my point, does it mean the movie Bond was ever like that.

Over all, The Sweeney, although you are evidently determined to zealously defend Craig and Skyfall, you will not persuade me. If you enjoy Skyfall then that’s fine, no problem, it’s only a movie, but you shall simply have to accept that I don’t share your enthusiasm. We must each allow others to disagree with us. You have your huffy, self-absorbed, sexually ambiguous, inept new character, but the Bond I have enjoyed over the years is cut from a different cloth.

Skyfall cannot be taken back, it cannot be ‘unreleased’. The writers have done what they have done. Bond is dead.
Last edited by Jim on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Jim »

Hey Roger Devereau & The Saint 007! Re. your comments above about Bond’s toughness – I agree entirely. I just don’t get this idea that Bond’s toughness is supposedly derived from looking like he spends hours a day in the gym. Which is why I never questioned that he didn’t look like he did so. I always took it that Bond’s toughness was born of an inner grit and resourcefulness. I thought that’s what set him apart.
Last edited by Jim on Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by bjmdds »

Yo Jim, you know your onions. Cr-egg is not Bond but now, JAMESBONDISNOLONGERBOND.com should be the website's new domain name here. MP, Bond, Q, the plots, are all trash now. Remember, we are back to square one now at Dr. No's beginning scene. What a joke :!: :down: FBF would most definitely agree I would expect.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by FormerBondFan »

bjmdds wrote:Yo Jim, you know your onions. Cr-egg is not Bond but now, JAMESBONDISNOLONGERBOND.com should be the website's new domain name here. MP, Bond, Q, the plots, are all trash now. Remember, we are back to square one now at Dr. No's beginning scene. What a joke :!: :down: FBF would most definitely agree I would expect.
Bond is no longer Bond even with the traditional elements.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Sweeney »

Jim wrote:
Over all, The Sweeney, although you are evidently determined to zealously defend Craig and Skyfall, you will not persuade me. If you enjoy Skyfall then that’s fine, no problem, it’s only a movie, but you shall simply have to accept that I don’t share your enthusiasm. We must each allow others to disagree with us. You have your huffy, self-absorbed, sexually ambiguous, inept new character, but the Bond I have enjoyed over the years is cut from a different cloth.

Skyfall cannot be taken back, it cannot be ‘unreleased’. The writers have done what they have done. Bond is dead.
I've explained my thoughts on how I interpreted Skyfall, which was very different to yours, Jim. In the novel YOLT Bond messes up a couple of assignments because his mind is no longer on the job during his months of depression. Bond gets a lot of people killed in the novels by accident, and in Skyfall you got the feeling it was only a matter of time before Silva would kill M. I guess Bond prolongued the inevitable. He tried to get her to safety and kill Silva at the same time, but it didn't go according to plan. This is what makes Bond great. He is human and makes mistakes.

I suggest you read them all if you are interested in knowing more. They are much better than the movies. I could go on taking your response and responding to it again with my response, but what's the point?

Obviously neither of us will change each others mind, so let's leave it at that.

This is why Bond has lasted so long over the years - everyone has had their own favourite. The Bond of FRWL, OHMSS, CR, LTK and Skyfall is light years away from the Bond of DAD, Moonraker or YOLT. Some have Connery as their favourite, others have Moore, and now many have Craig. This is how the series has managed to evolve.

I saw Skyfall again last night and noticed Batman influences rained down heavily on third viewing. If QoS was a nod to Bourne, Skyfall is definitely a nod to TDK. EON usually try to create a Bond film that emulates the trend at that time - LALD/Shaft, TMWTGG/Bruce Lee, Moonraker/Star Wars, Octopussy/Indy Jones, LTK/Die Hard & Lethal Weapon.

As for TMWTGG and its homosexual undertone. Read this article here - http://commanderbond.net/1110/sex-and-t ... n-gun.html

Quite interesting interpretation of the novel, and made me think slightly differently towards it when I read the book again.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Sweeney »

Roger Devereau wrote:Bond is not overly handsome? I must have been reading some different Ian Fleming novels all these years. :) Fleming's Bond was the archetypal film star handsome hero type not a literary Hugo Drax lookalike.

I imagine Bond as having a relatively normal body. In the novels he is tough and often hurts himself quite badly. He relies on his wits and training. But he is not the muscular type like Craig. Daniel Craig is a short fella who felt the need to body build for Bond. Ian Fleming's James Bond would not body build for 3 hours every day - he'd go nuts. Take Daniel's bodybuilding and match it with his stern facial expression and the myth of Daniel Craig being the toughest Bond is created.
Bond looking cruel is emphasised throughout all the books. SMERSH thinks he looks like a `nasty looking customer' when studying his photo in FRWL, and in TSWLM Viv Michel thinks Bond is another villain on first sight of him.

Bond always tries to keep fit in the books, whether its press-ups and sit ups in the morning, lengthy swims, etc. You never got the impression Bond in the books was an average, middle-aged spread looking build. He is usually described as having a fit, athletic build, which pretty much sums up Craig's Bond.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Kristatos »

The Sweeney wrote: Bond looking cruel is emphasised throughout all the books.
That's only half the truth. The usual description of him is that he is movie-star handsome, but rather cruel around the mouth. I think that description fits Connery, Dalton and Brosnan. The others, not so much.

Edit: Hoagy Carmichael, who Bond is said to resemble, does look a little like Moore in this photo though, IMO.

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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Sweeney »

Kristatos wrote:
The Sweeney wrote: Bond looking cruel is emphasised throughout all the books.
That's only half the truth. The usual description of him is that he is movie-star handsome, but rather cruel around the mouth. I think that description fits Connery, Dalton and Brosnan. The others, not so much.
I think it fits Connery, Dalton and Lazenby. Brosnan definitely not. There is nothing cruel-looking about Brozza. I have always found him way too pretty-boy for Bond.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Mazer Rackham »

Off topic.
Sweeney/Jetters do you think this Craig reboot makes his previous two irrelevant?
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Sweeney »

Mazer Rackham wrote:Off topic.
Sweeney/Jetters do you think this Craig reboot makes his previous two irrelevant?
Almost, yes. Had this film followed CR then it would have made more sense, but I can see the need for QoS to wrap up Bond's unfinished business with `Quantum' (as much as I hate the concept of this organisation, and its naff name).

Skyfall felt more of a reboot in many ways than CR did. This should really have followed CR, and merged some of the aspects of QoS into it (but not Dan Bradley and his badly edited action sequences.... :lol: )
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Napoleon Solo »

The Sweeney wrote:

This is why Bond has lasted so long over the years - everyone has had their own favourite. The Bond of FRWL, OHMSS, CR, LTK and Skyfall is light years away from the Bond of DAD, Moonraker or YOLT. Some have Connery as their favourite, others have Moore, and now many have Craig. This is how the series has managed to evolve.

I saw Skyfall again last night and noticed Batman influences rained down heavily on third viewing. If QoS was a nod to Bourne, Skyfall is definitely a nod to TDK. EON usually try to create a Bond film that emulates the trend at that time - LALD/Shaft, TMWTGG/Bruce Lee, Moonraker/Star Wars, Octopussy/Indy Jones, LTK/Die Hard & Lethal Weapon.
From January 2012, long before Mendes commented about similarities between Skyfall and The Dark Knight:

http://hmssweblog.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... in-common/
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Saint 007 »

Wasn't Carry Grant, David Niven, and even Roger Moore some of the first choices to play Bond? They don't exactly fit the muscular tough guy image of Craig's Bond that some people seem to praise as being the true image of the character.

I've said this before, but not everything from the books will translate well on the movie screen. Some changes will have to be made to make the films as mass appealing as possible. Men, women, and even children could enjoy watching Bond films, and it's not often you can say that about espionage films. There's no denying that the Bond of the cinema is what made the character very popular all over the world. Some consider Bond to be the grandfather of action films, and there's been many films/shows that have been inspired by Bond. Bond may have began in the Fleming books, but it was the films that brought Bond to such popularity, and made him more appealing to the masses. Whether it was intentional or by accident, I don't know, but the formula/template created for cinematic Bond has definitely made a massive impact on what most people have come to know the character/series for.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by The Sweeney »

The Saint 007 wrote:Wasn't Carry Grant, David Niven, and even Roger Moore some of the first choices to play Bond? They don't exactly fit the muscular tough guy image of Craig's Bond that some people seem to praise as being the true image of the character.

I've said this before, but not everything from the books will translate well on the movie screen. Some changes will have to be made to make the films as mass appealing as possible. Whether it was intentional or by accident, I don't know, but the formula/template created for cinematic Bond has definitely made a massive impact on what most people have come to know the character/series for.
Fleming himself was fairly thin, with receeding hair, so one presumes he had the figure of Bond in the eye of the beholder as being like this too.

The changes EON have made translating from book to screen with Craig seems to have worked with movie audiences and critics alike. The BO figures of CR, QoS and now Skyfall speak for themselves, along with the huge praise poured on CR and Skyfall critically. The mass appeal for Craig Bond is definitely there, so EON have done something right.

Craig appears to encapsulate the modern Bond for modern times - not your traditionally dark and handsome leading man movie star, with well-groomed hair and easy on the eyes. Craig is more rugged, thug-looking, with cropped blonde hair, ready for battle. The fact that he somehow incorporates the essence of Fleming's character is a bonus in all this.
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Re: Skyfall = Bond is dead

Post by Jim »

Hi again, The Sweeney!
Yes, as you say, you’ve explained your interpretation of Skyfall. And indeed, you repeat yourself very eloquently, but please forgive me if I am sceptical of your interpretative skills when you say things like ‘Bond gets a lot of people killed in the novels by accident’, previously citing Tracey, whom as far as I know, certainly in the film, Bond did not get killed. Perhaps you are too keen by half to find support for Skyfall’s inadequacies where there is none.

You say ‘in Skyfall you got the feeling it was only a matter of time before Silva would kill M. I guess Bond prolonged the inevitable’ but I think that’s a somewhat convenient suggestion. In any given Bond film you could argue ‘you got the feeling’ the villain would accomplish his aim. Such a vague and subjective notion indicates nothing but your willingness to make excuses for the writers of Skyfall. Silva wanted to kill M; ‘Bond’ took her to an isolated, under-protected manor house and invited Silva to come and get her; which he promptly did. This ‘tried to get her to safety’ appears in retrospect to be somewhat inadequate, wouldn’t you say? I dare say the new M would be better off declining any offers of help from ‘Bond’ in the future.

Yes, I may read some more of the novels, but I’m not convinced I’ll come across the inept little huffpot of Skyfall in them. But whether or not I do read any more of them, I still have the 22 Bond movies to compare Skyfall to. And that comparison, essentially, is how I know the central character in Skyfall is not Bond.

And also, I suspect your assertion that ‘EON usually try to create a Bond film that emulates the trend at that time’ is a somewhat superficial and contrived analysis, and one that does nothing to justify Skyfall’s abysmal simulation of Bond.

Concerning your suggestion TMWTGG raises the prospect of a sexually ambiguous Bond, the article does not seem to offer much by way of support for Skyfall’s allusion to ‘Bond’s’ previous homosexual experiences. The article itself asserts that ‘the final paragraph does not indicate that James Bond is homosexual’; and I feel the article’s author may, via some loose misinterpretation and imaginative leaps of logic, be injecting the book with a theme it does not itself necessarily possess. You yourself indicate you didn’t pick up any such theme when you initially read the book.

You say – ‘I could go on taking your response and responding to it again with my response, but what's the point?... Obviously neither of us will change each others mind, so let's leave it at that.’

Well, sure, that’s fine by me, let’s leave it at that. Cool.
Just ease back now, Jim. Relaaax. Mr. Big wants to see you.
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