Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by FormerBondFan »

Veronica wrote:So that leaves Brosnan and Moore to take all the blame of why the franchise was so much worse before Craig while in reality both are teriffic Bonds while Craig has all the finesse of a butcher.
The only difference between Rog and Pierce is that the latter didn't have the creative freedom like the former did. Plus, Pierce himself intended his Bond to be similar to Tim's (in terms of a dark and grittier route) but in his own take. Unfortunately, that never happened thanks to the arrogance of EON.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by John P. Drake »

FormerBondFan wrote:
Veronica wrote:So that leaves Brosnan and Moore to take all the blame of why the franchise was so much worse before Craig while in reality both are teriffic Bonds while Craig has all the finesse of a butcher.
The only difference between Rog and Pierce is that the latter didn't have the creative freedom like the former did. Plus, Pierce himself intended his Bond to be similar to Tim's (in terms of a dark and grittier route) but in his own take. Unfortunately, that never happened thanks to the arrogance of EON.
Yep! Whereas Craig gets a co-producer credit in Spectre.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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Every bond fan will admit there are problems with the movie series, but it disintegrates after that becoming a pissing match of bashing our least favorite bond somehow ignoring the fact producers had the real power controlling the content and feel of those hated moments/movies in the movie series. The actors did what they were paid to do. Although I separate Craig from this because aside from being granted producer credits by his main supporter and biggest fan girl Babzzy, since he was hired the series has been reduced to a big ego trip and PR machine for one man arguably the most replaceable cog in the bond machine. I think this has done more harm to the series than all the double taking pidgins, Tarzan yells and invisible cars.


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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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Yep! And yet there are some delusional people who think the series is in the greatest shape with the Craig era.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by Veronica »

FormerBondFan wrote:
Veronica wrote:So that leaves Brosnan and Moore to take all the blame of why the franchise was so much worse before Craig while in reality both are teriffic Bonds while Craig has all the finesse of a butcher.
The only difference between Rog and Pierce is that the latter didn't have the creative freedom like the former did. Plus, Pierce himself intended his Bond to be similar to Tim's (in terms of a dark and grittier route) but in his own take. Unfortunately, that never happened thanks to the arrogance of EON.
I don't think that making something "darker and gritier" necessarily makes something better. Quite the opposite in fact,in some cases. Two of the Brosnan films suffered from a lack of a well-put together scripts,weak written Bond girl parts and questionable casting choices( don't get me started on the irritating presence that is Teri Hatcher). Better scripts would have helped the Brosnan era,not going all dark and gritty necessarily.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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Veronica wrote:Better scripts would have helped the Brosnan era,not going all dark and gritty necessarily.
You do notice that Pierce himself wanted a dark and gritty Bond himself, but you are right. He needed better scripts.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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His scripts are still better than Craig’s ballsed up last three.

I'll add to this, as well, that it was better not having Brosnan go down the dark path regardless of how much he'd have wanted his Bond to be like Dalton. It just doesn't suit him. The only "dark" type of characters I could see Brosnan in are the roles he picked up in The Fourth Protocol and Survivor, making a very menacing almost-mute assassin. And Bond is no assassin.

The November Man showcased that - regardless of his good performance - a role like Devereaux (the titular character) had him miscast. Some roles just can't be forced upon someone and has to be played to an actor's strengths. Just because one is an actor doesn't mean every role is adaptable like a chameleon. Brosnan is best to be portrayed as a suave, nonchalant and daring swashbuckler of a character with slightly dark, toughened and rugged up moments every now and then (like his first encounter with Renard in The World Is Not Enough or his standoff with Gustav Graves and Miranda Frost in Die Another Day).
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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John P. Drake wrote:I'll add to this, as well, that it was better not having Brosnan go down the dark path regardless of how much he'd have wanted his Bond to be like Dalton. It just doesn't suit him.
I hope you're not saying he's best with lighthearted and campy stuff.
The November Man showcased that - regardless of his good performance - a role like Devereaux (the titular character) had him miscast. Some roles just can't be forced upon someone and has to be played to an actor's strengths. Just because one is an actor doesn't mean every role is adaptable like a chameleon.
Pierce wanted his Bond to be just as dark as NM.
Brosnan is best to be portrayed as a suave, nonchalant and daring swashbuckler of a character with slightly dark, toughened and rugged up moments every now and then (like his first encounter with Renard in The World Is Not Enough or his standoff with Gustav Graves and Miranda Frost in Die Another Day).
Pierce isn't a fan of his Bonds after GE though I would say otherwise. He disliked the one-liners and those outlandish plots. Also, he isn't always suave. The Tailor of Panama, The Matador, and especially The Fourth Protocol are one of these examples him portraying non-suave roles.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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Veronica wrote:I don't think that making something "darker and gritier" necessarily makes something better.
Neither is "lighter and campier".
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:I'll add to this, as well, that it was better not having Brosnan go down the dark path regardless of how much he'd have wanted his Bond to be like Dalton. It just doesn't suit him.
I hope you're not saying he's best with lighthearted and campy stuff.
Lighter characters doesn't mean "campy stuff". I could imagine Brosnan playing characters like Neville Sinclair from The Rocketeer, a character that has loads of charisma and colourful themes to his persona that still doesn't fall into the campy area and still has menacing presence. What Brosnan can't be suited to is a character like Jason Bourne.
FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:The November Man showcased that - regardless of his good performance - a role like Devereaux (the titular character) had him miscast. Some roles just can't be forced upon someone and has to be played to an actor's strengths. Just because one is an actor doesn't mean every role is adaptable like a chameleon.
Pierce wanted his Bond to be just as dark as NM.
And I'm glad his Bond didn't get dark because The November Man isn't the best of the films out there, just like North Sea Hijack isn't suitable for an actor like Roger Moore despite the both of them being superb in their respective roles. You can't force stuff. It just doesn't work.

If you want Brosnan in darker modes, The Fourth Protocol and Survivor are the ones to look up to. Those are separate films. Bond cannot be in the same league as those.

Just a reminder: Charismatic Swashbuckler ≠ wimpy and/or light-hearted character.
FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:Brosnan is best to be portrayed as a suave, nonchalant and daring swashbuckler of a character with slightly dark, toughened and rugged up moments every now and then (like his first encounter with Renard in The World Is Not Enough or his standoff with Gustav Graves and Miranda Frost in Die Another Day).
Pierce isn't a fan of his Bonds after GE though I would say otherwise. He disliked the one-liners and those outlandish plots. Also, he isn't always suave. The Tailor of Panama, The Matador, and especially The Fourth Protocol are one of these examples him portraying non-suave roles.
Connery isn't a fan of his Bonds, either. That doesn't make either Brosnan or Connery bad in their Bond films, does it?
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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John P. Drake wrote:And I'm glad his Bond didn't get dark because The November Man isn't the best of the films out there, just like North Sea Hijack isn't suitable for an actor like Roger Moore despite the both of them being superb in their respective roles. You can't force stuff. It just doesn't work.
NM had a lower budget.
If you want Brosnan in darker modes, The Fourth Protocol and Survivor are the ones to look up to. Those are separate films. Bond cannot be in the same league as those.
Pierce is best with darker roles at this day and age. Think Seraphim Falls and The Ghost Writer. I'm not saying he's worst with lighthearted roles. It's just that Pierce's lighthearted side has been overdone to the core. Maybe not overly dark, but generally speaking, I prefer him in @SS-kicking roles.
Connery isn't a fan of his Bonds, either. That doesn't make either Brosnan or Connery bad in their Bond films, does it?
I never said they were. Pierce should've been given the freedom with Bond like Tim and Rog had. If anything, I can see Pierce taking a darker route while maintaining the suave persona from Sean. Think of this way. The way I see Pierce's Bond is someone who is calm and suave on the outside but a ruthless killer in the inside. I feel that with better scripts, Pierce wouldn't be given such a hard time.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:And I'm glad his Bond didn't get dark because The November Man isn't the best of the films out there, just like North Sea Hijack isn't suitable for an actor like Roger Moore despite the both of them being superb in their respective roles. You can't force stuff. It just doesn't work.
NM had a lower budget.
Yes, it did. But, having read the novel it was based on, There Are No Spies, there wasn't much to do. It's a very slow-paced story. The film is richer with elements compared to the source material it was based on.
FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:If you want Brosnan in darker modes, The Fourth Protocol and Survivor are the ones to look up to. Those are separate films. Bond cannot be in the same league as those.
Pierce is best with darker roles at this day and age. Think Seraphim Falls and The Ghost Writer. I'm not saying he's worst with lighthearted roles. It's just that Pierce's lighthearted side has been overdone to the core. Maybe not overly dark, but generally speaking, I prefer him in @SS-kicking roles.
Never said I don't. I want him to manhandle anybody who stands in his way in the films and show them who's the boss in the room. Brosnan is perfectly capable of doing that. What I don't see suitable for him in regards to character personas is the grim, brooding and emotional traits that are overdone nowadays thanks to the abysmal Jason Bourne film franchise. That's why swashbucklerism works better for Brosnan. I mean... Errol Flynn often played suave swashbuckler characters yet he was known to be one of the Hollywood tough guys who takes no crap from anyone. I see Brosnan the way I see Errol Flynn.
FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:Connery isn't a fan of his Bonds, either. That doesn't make either Brosnan or Connery bad in their Bond films, does it?
I never said they were. Pierce should've been given the freedom with Bond like Tim and Rog had. If anything, I can see Pierce taking a darker route while maintaining the suave persona from Sean. Think of this way. The way I see Pierce's Bond is someone who is calm and suave on the outside but a ruthless killer in the inside. I feel that with better scripts, Pierce wouldn't be given such a hard time.
Yes, he should have been. In fact, many of the ideas he proposed during his Bond tenure that were rejected are being reused for the Craig era, which is why I fault Barbara Broccoli above all (Michael G. Wilson doesn't have much say in the matter since Babs joined the front row of the production seats), and I'm hopeful after Craig is done, the rumors turn out to be true that they are selling the franchise.

Regarding his scripts, like I've always said, the films were done in their own convenient eras when the trend was all about the "cool guys" jumping with dual guns and shooting in slow motion while CGI bullets are shown flying as some rock/techno music plays in the background, etc. Brosnan's Bonds are from an era where the Die Hard type actioners were the trendy thing before 9/11 wiped that all out. What I'm saying is that his scripts were not bad. They're products of their time. I've grown to love Die Another Day in the past three years a lot and defend it in the face of its detractors. Not that they are inducing in numbers, quite the opposite. In the wake of the Marvel Cinematic Universe film franchise, and cinematic trends changing again, Brosnan's Bonds are experiencing a renaissance. Yes, there's an appreciation of his Bonds growing more and more, day by day, whereas people are tired of Craig recycling the same BS. I also heavily blame the fight choreographer in Brosnan's latter three Bond films as it was awfully mishandled.

You may hate this, FBF, but after having read John Rogers' script for the unproduced Thomas Crown Affair sequel, it's regrettable that Brosnan never got the chance to film it because it was really evolved from the 1999 film, containing action scenes as well. There are two hand-to-hand combat scenes and one intense car chase at the climactic finale. It was James Bond and Bruce Wayne merged into one. In one scene, Thomas Crown wallops one of his rivals even.

What I wouldn't want Brosnan to do is appearing in worthless B-Movies nobody gives a toss about; cringe-worthy romcoms like that one abysmal movie with Sarah Jessica Parker, for instance; family dramas; and dark/grim Jason Bourne/Christopher Nolan rip-offs. He should go Liam Neeson and do what he's best at. And most important of all, appear in mainstream movies. The Son is some ten-episode per season television series nobody will remember five years after it goes off the air. He should do something about it.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by Veronica »

FormerBondFan wrote:
Veronica wrote:I don't think that making something "darker and gritier" necessarily makes something better.
Neither is "lighter and campier".
Lighter and campier doesn't make it automatically worse either. Don't know why you should hope John P isn't saying Brosnan is best with lighter stuff because there is nothing wrong with that. Saying someone is better with "darker gritier" stuff doesn't make him more talented than the actor who is better with lighter roles.

I honestly think his charisma would be wasted on constant dark gritty moody/whatever roles because there are enough of those already and are so incredibly generic. I think a role on Suits for example would be a great choice. Or Mad Men,that would be teriffic,he would fit right in. Shame that never happened.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by John P. Drake »

Veronica wrote:
FormerBondFan wrote:
Veronica wrote:I don't think that making something "darker and gritier" necessarily makes something better.
Neither is "lighter and campier".
Lighter and campier doesn't make it automatically worse either. Don't know why you should hope John P isn't saying Brosnan is best with lighter stuff because there is nothing wrong with that. Saying someone is better with "darker gritier" stuff doesn't make him more talented than the actor who is better with lighter roles.

I honestly think his charisma would be wasted on constant dark gritty moody/whatever roles because there are enough of those already and are so incredibly generic. I think a role on Suits for example would be a great choice. Or Mad Men,that would be teriffic,he would fit right in. Shame that never happened.
Well said!
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by FormerBondFan »

John P. Drake wrote:I see Brosnan the way I see Errol Flynn.
Tim did portray an Errol Flynn inspired role in The Rocketeer in The Rocketeer.
And most important of all, appear in mainstream movies.
Hollywood isn't doing him any favors. What about Hong Kong actioners?
The Son is some ten-episode per season television series nobody will remember five years after it goes off the air. He should do something about it.
Speaking of TV, what about a series based on Shadow Stalkers video game?
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by FormerBondFan »

Veronica wrote:
FormerBondFan wrote:
Veronica wrote:I don't think that making something "darker and gritier" necessarily makes something better.
Neither is "lighter and campier".
Lighter and campier doesn't make it automatically worse either. Don't know why you should hope John P isn't saying Brosnan is best with lighter stuff because there is nothing wrong with that. Saying someone is better with "darker gritier" stuff doesn't make him more talented than the actor who is better with lighter roles.

I honestly think his charisma would be wasted on constant dark gritty moody/whatever roles because there are enough of those already and are so incredibly generic. I think a role on Suits for example would be a great choice. Or Mad Men,that would be teriffic,he would fit right in. Shame that never happened.
It's just that Pierce's lighter and campier side is overdone to the core. I prefer him darker and grittier roles (no, not exactly moody kinds) mostly since that side of him is hardly explored at least to the majority of the general audience. However, dark and gritty are two different things. Pierce can portray darker roles without any grit like his role in The Ghost Writer. If anything, I prefer him in @$$-kicking roles (again). I'm not saying he should do this kind of role all the time, but he just needs the right scripts and directors. And no, I don't him in a FAT Seagal all God-mode role.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:I see Brosnan the way I see Errol Flynn.
Tim did portray an Errol Flynn inspired role in The Rocketeer in The Rocketeer.
Yes. Neville Sinclair. I could easily see Brosnan in a role like that, and not necessarily a villain.
FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:And most important of all, appear in mainstream movies.
Hollywood isn't doing him any favors. What about Hong Kong actioners?
I think it's more so that he's not showing any interest. He seems to be settled with life and wants to be in his comfort zone judging by the choices he's making. I'm fairly certain he turned down at least one role in the MCU. No way they wouldn't have offered him something. Regarding the DCEU, I want him to portray King Faraday as he seems to be at the perfect age.

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FormerBondFan wrote:
John P. Drake wrote:The Son is some ten-episode per season television series nobody will remember five years after it goes off the air. He should do something about it.
Speaking of TV, what about a series based on Shadow Stalkers video game?
Hmm, seeing it's being made by 3D Realms, I don't think that'd be a possibility. Otherwise, we would've had a Duke Nukem film and/or a TV show (whether live action or animated) by now. And that's also assuming the rumor about him being linked to the video game is true. Neither 3D Realms nor ZOOM Platform (co-developer) have answered my question about that, yet.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by Veronica »

FormerBondFan wrote:
Veronica wrote:
FormerBondFan wrote:
Veronica wrote:I don't think that making something "darker and gritier" necessarily makes something better.
Neither is "lighter and campier".
Lighter and campier doesn't make it automatically worse either. Don't know why you should hope John P isn't saying Brosnan is best with lighter stuff because there is nothing wrong with that. Saying someone is better with "darker gritier" stuff doesn't make him more talented than the actor who is better with lighter roles.

I honestly think his charisma would be wasted on constant dark gritty moody/whatever roles because there are enough of those already and are so incredibly generic. I think a role on Suits for example would be a great choice. Or Mad Men,that would be teriffic,he would fit right in. Shame that never happened.
It's just that Pierce's lighter and campier side is overdone to the core. I prefer him darker and grittier roles (no, not exactly moody kinds) mostly since that side of him is hardly explored at least to the majority of the general audience. However, dark and gritty are two different things. Pierce can portray darker roles without any grit like his role in The Ghost Writer. If anything, I prefer him in @$$-kicking roles (again). I'm not saying he should do this kind of role all the time, but he just needs the right scripts and directors. And no, I don't him in a FAT Seagal all God-mode role.
The thing is if one actor is particulary good at something then it can't be overdone IMO. The thing is,Brosnan is the one who makes the call on whether he will take some role or not. So "right scripts and directors" is somewhat trivial here since I doubt he loses sleep over night for not getting Oscar nominated.
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

Post by Veronica »

John P you are spot on about easily seeing Brosnan in a Neville Sinclaire type of role. :cheers:
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Re: Pierce Brosnan was the best 007

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"Happiest in his comfort zone" implies that he is some sort of one-trick pony, playing the same role over and over again. Rather, I think he is happy to just take the roles that interest him, regardless of whether they are likely to be box office hits or not. I don't doubt that he's taken some roles purely for the money (he has bills to pay, just like the rest of us), but he seems more willing to stretch himself than most.
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