Fleming possible reaction

Fleming possible reaction

Postby Moore » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:45 pm

Last night my mind crossed a thought about Fleming possible reaction to Daniel Craig's performance and Casino Royale as a whole. Would he be happy? I don't think so. And what do you think?
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Postby Kristatos » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:51 pm

I think it's a dangerous game trying to predict the reaction of a dead person who one never met. People just project their own opinions and prejudices onto Fleming.
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Postby Captain Nash » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:26 pm

That's a pretty crazy question Moore. Fleming never saw Lazenby, Moore, Dalton or Bosnan play Bond either. And the fact he's been dead for 43 years makes it rather difficult to predict what he would think of any of them apart from Connery.
No doubt they'll be the usual amount of support of smart arsed comments to follow.
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Postby The Sweeney » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:36 pm

Well let's compare the differemt actors and their roles since Fleming's death, shall we -

Connery - GF to DAF. Fleming may have been happy with GF (especially the golf scene) may have been happy with TB, I doubt he would have been happy with YOLT or DAF, and initially he was not happy with Connery as Bond (he probaly would have been even less happy with an overweight Connery by 1971).

Lazenby
- May have liked Lazenby, but the English snobbery in Fleming may have rejected him being an Aussie. He probably would have liked the film though.

Moore
- all his films were nothing like the novels, so Fleming would have hated the direction the films were going in. Moore may have looked the English gentleman, but his tongue-in-cheek performance for most part doesn't tally with the books either, so I doubt Fleming would have given something like MR the big thumbs up (either the film or Moore). God only knows what Fleming would have made of Moore doing Tarzan swings in OP, and especially him looking so old for his last 3 films.

Dalton - probably would have liked him. Tried to stay true to the character of the novels, and the films changed their style too, keeping in line with this.

Brosnan - probably happy with the physical appearance, but hard to say what he would have made of his first 3 films (I daren't include DAD as this would probably have killed him). The films stray into serious territory one moment (although in a slight different tone to the more sadistic, vicious tone of the novels) yet involve silly one-liners and OTT unrealistic moments too. So I doubt overall Fleming would have been a fan of his films.

Craig - Looking slightly different to the other actors, but looks more tougher and a killer than most of them. Physically looks more tougher. I personally think Fleming would have loved him, even if he has different hair colouring to the novels. As for the film, for the first time we see a Bond getting bloody, battered, bruised, hell - even waking up recovering in hospital (something that happened in most of the novels but never in the films). I think he would have loved CR as a film too, as the majority of the film tries to remain faithful to the novel.

He may not have been that keen on the first half of the film though, with the OTT action sequences.
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Postby carl stromberg » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:55 pm

No doubt they'll be the usual amount of support of smart arsed comments to follow.


Well, don't look at me! :wink:
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Postby Commander 0077 » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:39 pm

Fleming died around the time Goldfinger was being made, I think. While at first he didn't like Connery, he changed his mind as we all know. So much so that YOLT has a Bond with Scottish roots.

If can surmise from YOLT (his next-to-last Bond before his death), I would conjecture that he would be lukewarm with a totally killer-type Bond. Fleming's Bond is not a stone-cold assassin. He's always seeing the funny parts in life, even at their darkest. But since I've pointed this out before, etc.
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Postby Blowfeld » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Two minds about this:
On one hand I don't believe Fleming would be satisfied with Craig. If that was his intention for Bond then when FRWL was being filmed he would have spoke up and said 'you guys got the wrong guy as Bond, the guy playing insane lunatic killer is exactly what Bond should be'.

On the other hand I think Fleming wouldn't have cared if the money was right and the checks cashed. :?
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Postby The Sweeney » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:03 am

Blowfeld wrote:Two minds about this:
On one hand I don't believe Fleming would be satisfied with Craig. If that was his intention for Bond then when FRWL was being filmed he would have spoke up and said 'you guys got the wrong guy as Bond, the guy playing insane lunatic killer is exactly what Bond should be'.

On the other hand I think Fleming wouldn't have cared if the money was right and the checks cashed. :?


Sorry Blowfeld but you are way off the mark there. Robert Shaw's character in FRWL is nothing like Craig's character in CR.

Craig did have subtle moments were we knew he had a heart (shower scene with Vesper, the suprised look and comment after Vesper saves him from being poisoned, the smile when the banker apologises for not bringing chocolates, the look of fear before being tortured, the whole end part when Bond falls in love, etc.)

I don't see how this character resembles Captain Nash at all.... :?
Last edited by The Sweeney on Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Sweeney » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:07 am

Commander 0077 wrote:Fleming died around the time Goldfinger was being made, I think. While at first he didn't like Connery, he changed his mind as we all know. So much so that YOLT has a Bond with Scottish roots.

If can surmise from YOLT (his next-to-last Bond before his death), I would conjecture that he would be lukewarm with a totally killer-type Bond. Fleming's Bond is not a stone-cold assassin. He's always seeing the funny parts in life, even at their darkest. But since I've pointed this out before, etc.


Which is what Craig brings to Bond too. I mentioned in my previous post his more human moments, but there is also the one-liner he says on return to the game after nearly being poisoned, the smile on his face when he sees the man on the security camera examining his smashed car, etc.

The way some of you go on about his performance, its as though we are seeing Schwarznegger in The Terminator, and you seem to forget these moments.
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Postby Harvey Wallbanger » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:52 am

The Sweeney wrote:
Commander 0077 wrote:Fleming died around the time Goldfinger was being made, I think. While at first he didn't like Connery, he changed his mind as we all know. So much so that YOLT has a Bond with Scottish roots.

If can surmise from YOLT (his next-to-last Bond before his death), I would conjecture that he would be lukewarm with a totally killer-type Bond. Fleming's Bond is not a stone-cold assassin. He's always seeing the funny parts in life, even at their darkest. But since I've pointed this out before, etc.


Which is what Craig brings to Bond too. I mentioned in my previous post his more human moments, but there is also the one-liner he says on return to the game after nearly being poisoned, the smile on his face when he sees the man on the security camera examining his smashed car, etc.

The way some of you go on about his performance, its as though we are seeing Schwarznegger in The Terminator, and you seem to forget these moments.


Im not forgettin these moments -they were awful.
The one liner choked in his mouth like dry crackers –he was better off saying "f**k you" as he took his chair.

The smile in the video vault was akin to the airport. It was not Bond-It was sicker –more serial killer/psycho.
The Bond watching him self becoming a killer thingy was lame and over done.

Craig has potential but he has to be Bond not reimagine him as a study in character. –get past the start up and get on with the being bond.
Thats why B22 is not hopeful to me.
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Postby The Sweeney » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:50 am

Harvey Wallbanger wrote:The smile in the video vault was akin to the airport. It was not Bond-It was sicker –more serial killer/psycho.


I loved those 2 moments in the film. I think when Craig smiles at the bomber being blown up, that was the defining moment for me when I accepted Craig as Bond. On intially watching CR, it did take some adjusting towards the new tone, and new Bond, but I remember the bomber bit actually won me over, sealed my approval.
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Postby Double O's » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:23 am

Hard to speculate as to Fleming--although CR does follow with the novels more closely than others.

DC was an adjustment--but he grew on me-- he sealed it with me in the last frames of the movie-with the ankle shot of Mr. White. (Although he did look a little like Steve McQueen in The Thomas Crown Affair in his suit holding the automatic rifle).

He will grow in to this rola and as long as the scripts are good--he will be good.

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Postby carl stromberg » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:58 pm

It's difficult to say as Fleming did not live long enough to see many of the cinematic incarnations. I think he would have understood many of the changes as being symtomatic of changes in popular culture. Looking at the sort of person Fleming was, and that Bond was an expression of his background, I do feel that Craig would have been a little too proletarian and charmless for Fleming's taste, and miles away from Fleming's original choices of David Niven and Roger Moore. Admittedly Bond is supposed to be unlikable and a blunt instrument, but I do feel Craig took this to the extreme to the detriment of other elements of the character. To take the gentleman out of the gentleman thug was a mistake, and Fleming agrees so there Sweeney!
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Postby The Sweeney » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:02 pm

carl stromberg wrote:It's difficult to say as Fleming did not live long enough to see many of the cinematic incarnations. I think he would have understood many of the changes as being symtomatic of changes in popular culture. Looking at the sort of person Fleming was, and that Bond was an expression of his background, I do feel that Craig would have been a little too proletarian and charmless for Fleming's taste, and miles away from Fleming's original choices of David Niven and Roger Moore. Admittedly Bond is supposed to be unlikable and a blunt instrument, but I do feel Craig took this to the extreme to the detriment of other elements of the character. To take the gentleman out of the gentleman thug was a mistake, and Fleming agrees so there Sweeney!


Fleming may have been pleased that Moore came across as more public school gentleman, but do you think he would have been impressed with his or Brosnan's films? I don't think so at all. They made a mockery of his work.

Whereas CR is an attempt to return to Fleming material, and the film brings us some literary elements that have never been seen before on screen. I think Fleming would have opted for Craig not being too refined, rather than films which use Fleming titles, but involve double-taking pigeons, embarassing one-liners, invisible cars, embarassing storylines, Tarzan-swinging, under water tie-straightening super agents who don't lose a hair out of place, never mind break into a sweat.
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Postby Kristatos » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:58 pm

So, to recap: the people that liked CR think Fleming would have liked it and the people that hated CR think Fleming would have hated it. Who could have predicted that? :roll:
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Postby James » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:29 pm

One can only speculate on this. I don't know what Fleming would have made of Craig. He may have warmed to him , he may have mistaken him for a plumber. I tend to lean towards the latter.
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Postby The Sweeney » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:29 pm

Kristatos wrote:So, to recap: the people that liked CR think Fleming would have liked it and the people that hated CR think Fleming would have hated it. Who could have predicted that? :roll:


Yup! You are right. Both sides are very predictable....
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Postby Dr. No » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:33 pm

CR loosely based on the book. For my money OHMSS came the closest to the Book. (the audio book in my case :) )

Since Fleming didn't like Connery, Craig would have been too crude for his taste. Not to mention the wrong look to begin with.
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Postby The Sweeney » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:43 pm

Dr. No wrote:CR loosely based on the book. For my money OHMSS came the closest to the Book. (the audio book in my case :) )

Since Fleming didn't like Connery, Craig would have been too crude for his taste. Not to mention the wrong look to begin with.


What you are inadvertantly saying there is Connery and Craig are similar.

With regards films closest to the novels, I would rank them as -

1. OHMSS
2. FRWL
3. Dr. No
4. CR
5. GF (people often forget this is actually very close to the novel)
6. TB
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Postby Dr. No » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:20 pm

The Sweeney wrote:
Dr. No wrote:CR loosely based on the book. For my money OHMSS came the closest to the Book. (the audio book in my case :) )

Since Fleming didn't like Connery, Craig would have been too crude for his taste. Not to mention the wrong look to begin with.


What you are inadvertantly saying there is Connery and Craig are similar.

With regards films closest to the novels, I would rank them as -

1. OHMSS
2. FRWL
3. Dr. No
4. CR
5. GF (people often forget this is actually very close to the novel)
6. TB


NO what I am saying is exactly What I said.
Fleming thought Connery was too crude, yes Young ? polished him up but he was charming and charismatic form the get go. SC & DC are very dissimilar.
If handsome charming Connery was too crude then craig's thugishness and his hoodlum Bond has Fleming spinning in his grave.
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